Dr. Jay Gordon’s Letter to the Masses
A few days ago I posted some H1N1 vaccine resources and promised to attack some of the nonsense that I’m seeing float around LA these days. First on the docket, let’s take a look at a letter from Jay Gordon, anti-vax doctor to the anti-vax stars. This letter is making the rounds on my online mommy support board.
Full disclosure: I’m pretty worn out after a busy week of work and taking care of the world’s cutest red headed baby. So this might come off a little irritated. I often wonder if I should quit my online mommy support board, because the amount of woo circulating on it tends to make my head almost explode at times. But if you’re looking for a cheap exersaucer, the board is gold, I tell you, pure gold. I also like to dole out advice when I feel I can give it. Mostly, I post about fleas. If anyone’s interested, I can give you expert advice about how to rid your apartment of fleas, which are an enormous problem in Southern California. Turns out fleas love it here. No, I’m not an exterminator. I’m just obsessed with murdering fleas.
So I’ve posted on the mommy support board recently, providing links to various flu resources and leaving it at that. Several mommies emailed me and said thank you, thank you, it is so great to get good information! This makes me really happy. But I don’t engage in arguments on the board, as I don’t want to piss into the wind that blows free exersaucers my way. I’d rather just provide the information and let readers do as they like. Debate isn’t my style on internet forums. It never goes well. I’ll get into it in comments here. This is my home turf. But I don’t go into the house of woo and start insulting the host—what’s the point? I’ll just get acupunctured to death. However, it’s not easy holding back sometimes, especially when a letter like the following keeps appearing and is introduced as a “reasoned” response to H1N1. So here goes.
From Dr. Jay:
I have seen more children and adults with influenza-like illness: 104 degree fevers, muscle soreness, sore throat and negative tests for strep, than in any summer I can remember. I haven’t used the “flu swab” to test anybody, but I’m sure that many if not most of these sick people had Swine Flu. They all felt miserable, and they are all feeling just fine now.
How on earth does Dr. Gordon know that these people had Swine Flu? And why didn’t he test them for it if he suspected it? How is the CDC supposed to accurately track the spread of a disease if doctors like this guy just go with their gut and then don’t report? But I suppose the point of this paragraph, and the thesis statement of this entire letter, is that all these people who maybe had Swine Flu are all feeling better now. So don’t worry about the flu. It’s not that bad. No vaccinations necessary.
Preventing outbreaks of this “novel H1N1” influenza may be a mistake of huge proportions.
How huge? Numbers? Statistics? What do you mean mistake?
Yes, sadly, there will be fatalities among the 6 billion citizens of the planet. Tens of millions of cases of any illness will lead to morbidity and mortality, but this is completely (tragically) unavoidable.
Or…avoidable. Right? Because there’s a vaccine available for it. Doesn’t that mean avoidable?
The consequences of not acquiring immunity this time around, however, could be really terrible and far outweigh a mass prevention program.
Oy ve, that sentence is a tangled mess. As an English teacher, I gotta rewrite that sucker before I even attempt to refute it. Too clunky. Lessee…Acquiring immunity is better than a mass prevention program. Okay, that’s a little cleaner. Now what the hell does it mean? Isn’t prevention through a vaccine a way of conferring immunity? So you’re saying that acquiring immunity is better than acquiring immunity?
No, dude, I get it. What you mean is that you feel acquiring immunity naturally is better. Why? What are the consequences of acquiring immunity through a vaccination? What is it that I’m supposed to be afraid of? Facts? Figures? No? Oh, I see. Just fear. Whenever someone threatens consequences, especially scary and unknown consequences, it’s about manipulative fear. So what are you trying to manipulate me to do with this fear, Dr. Jay? I shall continue to read.
Here’s my rationale for not using Tamiflu: If (if, if, if) this virus circles the globe as the rather innocent influenza it now appears to be, but mutates and returns as a very virulent form of influenza, it will be quite wonderful and life-saving to have formed antibodies against its 2009 version. These antibodies may be far from 100% protective, but they will help. This is incredibly important but being ignored in the interest of expediency.
So it might be good to have antibodies that might help, maybe. You can’t predict, but you’re just saying, you know, it could be a good thing to get the mild flu, so that’s where you’re laying you’re money. Great. I totally trust your vague, wishy washy sense of the issue.
In 1918, it appears that influenza A (an H1N1, by the way) did this globe-trotting mutation and killed millions. The times and state of medical care are not comparable, but a milder parallel occurrence is possible. Perhaps this happens every 100 years or so, perhaps every three million.
If a milder parallel occurrence is possible, is a worse parallel occurrence possible? But something–maybe psychic power or just a feelin’– is just letting you know it’s mild. Is it mild for pregnant women? What about four-year-olds with asthma? Who should get the vaccination? Are you going to give me any advice I can use?
How could anyone think this is a reasoned argument? It’s an exercise in equivocation. It reminds me of pro / con essays my students write when they actually have no opinion but just want a good grade. So they don’t write pro or con. They just string together sentences that sound educated and hope they’re somehow pandering enough to the teacher. In this case, the teacher is an audience of parents who are still afraid of vaccinations, but wait, also an audience of fellow doctors. Better not be seen as too anti vax.
Whenever possible, we should form antibodies against viruses at the right stage of their existence and at the right stage of our lives (For example, chickenpox in childhood and EBV/mono in early childhood. There are many other examples.) Getting many viral illnesses confers lifetime immunity, and very few vaccines do.
I simply have to get myself some of these wild viruses. Lifetime immunity certainly is worth whatever risk the disease itself imposes. I mean, really, lifetime immunity, people. That’s quite a silver lining. Think about it if you get hospitalized with the flu. You’ll never get that particular flu again. That’s something. Oh, and if you happen to get a virus at the wrong stage of your life, well, I guess you’re just one of those unavoidable casualties.
So Jay Gordon goes on to say he won’t be giving Tamiflu, I guess because getting the full on flu is so awesome. Then this:
I also won’t be giving the flu shot to the kids and parents in my practice unless there are extraordinary risk factors. I anticipate giving none at all this year. I doubt that there will be any really large problems with the vaccine, but I also doubt any really large benefits. As I said, I think that this year’s version of this particular H1N1 is as “mild” as it will ever be and that getting sick with it this year will be good rather than bad. The chances that a new “flu shot” will be overwhelmingly effective are small.
While Googling for this letter, I found this fun commentary on a blog called Way of the Woo:
Not sure why “flu shot” is in scare-quotes but “whatever”.
Ah, that’s good. Now back to Dr. Jay:
I consider this, and most seasonal and novel influenza A vaccines, as “experimental” vaccines; they’ve only been tested on thousands of people for a period of weeks and then they’ll be given to hundreds of millions of people. Not really the greatest science when we’re in that much of a hurry.
Unfortunately, Science Based Medicine is down right now, so I can’t post a link to a great explanation of how quickly the seasonal flu vaccine gets made every year. In any case, Dr. Jay’s implication seems to be that this is a new and possibly dangerous shot. Then he says:
Implying that this is a dangerous new shot is not scientifically or statistically correct and represents hyperbole and even dishonesty on the part of the so-called “anti-vaccine” camp.
Wha? So confused. So tired and annoyed.
It sure isn’t “sexy” to suggest handwashing, good nutrition, hydration, extra sleep and so on. It’s not conventional to suggest astragalus, echinacea, elderberry and vitamin C. Adequate vitamin D levels are crucial, too.
It isn’t sexy to suggest handwashing? Is he trying to ally himself with homespun, common sense wisdom here and position himself against those “sexy” doctors who want vaccinate you? Doesn’t everyone suggest handwashing? I don’t get this. Oh, also, he’s such a maverick–not “conventional.” Not only he is homespun, but he thinks outside the box, you see. He’ll point you to some herbal stuff that will do nothing.
Vitamin C, okay maybe. But vitamin D seems to be the vitamin du jour. Again, too bad SBM is down at the moment. There’s a great article on the vitamin D craze and the flu there. I will link to it when the blog comes back up.
I just think that giving this new H1N1 vaccine is not the cautious nor best thing to do.
Yep, you “just think.” No real logical argument, no evidence, no reason. Just the way you feel. This is terrible advice, if you can even call it advice. To sum up:
Yep, vaccines are great, I’m not against vaccines, but I don’t think we should give this vaccine, because I’m against it, only I’m not, but I am. It could be horribly dangerous, and there could be unknown “consequences” if we give it, but I’m not against it. But I am. Not. Am.
Svetlana Said,
September 23, 2009 @ 12:39 pm
Where are the abulance chasing lawyers when you need them? Why can this man not be sued for malpractice? Why is there not a professional body – say of other physicians – who can discipline him? Funny aside – my 8 year-old keeps asking for the swine flu vaccine, so much has the swine flu been hyped at his public elementary school. I tell him we’ll be the first in line at your pediatrician’s office when it’s available. And, oh, we’re all 4 fully vaccinated against the “regular” flu. Go get ‘em, gals.
Jodi Said,
September 23, 2009 @ 1:18 pm
Boy, this guy is a piece of work. He’s against flu shots? Thanks for calling attention to the woo. Let’s hope mothers don’t listen to this quack.
Jessie Said,
September 23, 2009 @ 10:16 pm
Unfortunately they do. I know some of them.
Vanessa Said,
September 24, 2009 @ 7:53 am
He also calls against using sunscreen, which is a sore point for me: http://www.gluesky.com/2009/06/sunblock/
Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP Said,
September 24, 2009 @ 11:41 pm
Hi Julie—
Just found your site. I’ll look in often.
I thought I’d answer a couple of your points. Thanks, by the way, for cleaning up some of my syntax.
The CDC is no longer counting cases but is giving us docs guidelines. They also declared that the novel H1N1 virus is now the predominant virus causing influenza signs and symptoms. No tests needed.
Swine Flu is not that bad, as you’ve mentioned. If you review the data from the last SF epidemic in 1976 you’ll see that the vaccine caused more harm than the virus itself. No, the complications of this virus are not avoidable and I’ll merely ask your readers to look at the news stories of the past week.
I’m sorry to see that you, like many of the other bloggers on the web, are so willing to be nasty rather than approaching this discussion with civility.
Yes, there are some high-risk children and adults who should get this vaccine and I would certainly defer to the opinions of the pediatricians and other specialists who know them best.
You find my tone equivocating?? That’s a tough one to swallow, so let me be clearer: The vaccine against the H1N1 Swine Flu will do more harm than good, both in the short term and the longer term. I recommend that virtually no one get this shot.
Clear enough?
By the way, if you ever want to talk to me instead of yelling at me in print and/or insulting me, my number’s in the book.
Best,
Jay
Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP Said,
September 24, 2009 @ 11:43 pm
By the way, I use sun screen and recommend sun screen but also recommend that toddlers, children and adults get some sun exposure every day if possible.
Geez.
Jay
Julie Said,
September 25, 2009 @ 10:09 am
This isn’t really clear. What harm will the vaccine do in the short term? What harm will it do in the longer term?
Edit:
I didn’t have much time to respond earlier today, so I’d like to beef up my earlier response to Dr. Gordon’s comment.
Thanks for clearing up the issue of counting cases for the CDC. Honestly, I didn’t really research whether that was necessary. So now I know.
As for the 1976 virus, for anyone who isn’t aware, it is true that the swine flu of 1976 turned out to be milder than expected, and it’s also true that the swine flu vaccine caused more harm than the flu.
Because it’s such a succinct summary, I’m lifting this from Harriet Hall’s article on Science Based Medicine:
We really have no way to predict whether this flu virus will be as bad as 1918 or as mild as 1976. But you, for no reason, are just placing your bets that it will be mild. 302 people have already died from the current H1N1 strain just in the US, and there have been 2184 deaths worldwide. That’s already more than the 25 who died of Guillain-Barré syndrome in 1976, so the flu does seem like more of a health threat, even in its mild form. And while it’s true that many people who decide not to vaccinate will probably be fine, whether or not they get the flu, making the decision to vaccinate is about risk vs. benefit. Looking at numbers, the risk of complications from the flu, especially should it take a turn and become more severe, does seem much worse than the risk of side effects from a vaccination.
Here’s some more from Harriet Hall:
I am not sure why you would go against the recommendations of the CDC based on your hunch that this vaccine will cause harm, and I believe it is irresponsible for someone in your position to dole out advice based on intuition rather than facts. And thanks, but I’m not interested in calling you for a chat.
Vanessa Said,
September 25, 2009 @ 11:22 am
Dr. Jay – I got you confused with Dr. Mercola. http://www.mercola.com/ I am sorry and I won’t make that mistake again.
Carry on with the vaccine debate!
Is Guillain-Barré syndrome a reason to fear the swine flu vaccine? Said,
September 29, 2009 @ 1:27 pm
[...] covered this information in a comment, but it bears [...]
Margaret Said,
October 1, 2009 @ 11:53 pm
You are kind of harsh to Dr. Jay. Turned me off a little to be honest. Anyways this is your world you do what you want. But I have to make a point, you are primarily citing one source (Ms. Hall). Which I am not debunking my any means. I further want to mention I have personally discussed this topic of H1N1 with two doctors and one nurse. None of which totally agree. Soooo in a nut shell there really is two sides to every story and neither one is 100% infallible. I’d also like to point out that as long as Science is “man made”: the act of classifying, quantify, running tests, etc. it is susceptible to error. I mean the world was flat…things change we find out new stuff all the fringgin’ time. It wasn’t that long ago that drs. were prescribing Thalidomide and okay-ing alcohol consumption. I think a a healthy dose of skepticism is alright…on both sides. Please don’t rip me for my grammar/spelling or writing. I realize it is not a strength. Just sharing my thoughts.
Elizabeth Said,
October 18, 2009 @ 2:44 pm
Excellent, post.
I followed your link from Science Based Medicine where Dr. Gordon stated he has never had any complaints to the medical board. I live in L.A. and am familiar with his relationship to the case of Christine Maggiore and the death of her daughter. Sometimes telling people whatever they want to hear can be deadly . . . where was his skepticism here?
I don’t think you were too tough – a doctor’s advice should be based on more than his “feelings.” Hopefully the parents of Dr. Gordon’s patients are skeptical enough to question his “feelings” and need for attention and weigh these against the available science.