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37 Comments »

1. Brooke Said,

   September 14, 2009 @ 2:38 pm

   Great post! I can’t wait to have my epidoodle. Baby is due in January.
   Thanks for the insight!

2. Sivana Said,

   September 14, 2009 @ 5:20 pm

   Great post! I just wanted to correct one thing: extrovert is not the opposite of shy. A person can be both an extrovert and shy.

   Extrovert simply means that a person is “recharged” by being around other people while introverts are “recharged” by spending time alone. Introverts may be social butterflies who love meeting and chatting with people, but they will then need to go home and spend some time alone.

   Other than that, I loved this post!

3. Jodi Said,

   September 14, 2009 @ 6:01 pm

   Great post, Dean!

4. Phyllis Said,

   September 14, 2009 @ 7:13 pm

   Exactly.

5. Timothy Mills Said,

   September 15, 2009 @ 1:21 am

   Awesome post. I agree with about 95% of what you say.

   My only disagreement is over homebirth. Although I accept that most people who chose homebirth do so for at least partly woo and anti-science reasons, my investigations into the research have failed to come up with a solid scientific case for hospital over homebirth.

   If you’re interested, here’s a discussion over at the Bad Science forums between me and some other skeptics, where I outline the case for homebirth.

   For the record: my wife and I planned a home birth for baby #1, attended by an experienced and evidence-respecting midwife. Everything went well, except failure to progress, so we eventually transferred to hospital. Wife had an epidural, baby was born vaginally. It was an excellent birth overall, and we would do it the same way again. We felt that the time spent at home before transfer was worthwhile, and there is no reason to think that we “got lucky” – that we beat the odds. Baby #2 is due in a couple of weeks, and we are planning a homebirth again with the same midwife.

6. Jessica Said,

   September 15, 2009 @ 7:16 am

   My experience with Pitocin was uniformly horrible, but the moral of my birth story isn’t “don’t do drugs” but rather “fire your OB if he’s being an asshole.” There are many good medical reasons to induce labor. “Dr. Jackass doesn’t want to have to come back to the hospital tomorrow” is not one of them.

   (The short version – Pitocin induces labor, but makes contractions more painful. Epidural removes pain, but also slows contractions. More Pitocin is needed to restart labor. Mom has now been in artifically induced labor for almost two days, is declared “failure to progress,” and baby is born by emergency c-section with ketamine. And ketamine IS evil. I can’t believe there are people who take that stuff recreationally – coming down off it was the exact opposite of fun. I didn’t get to meet my son until almost 6 hours after he was born because I couldn’t stop shivering.)

   /anecdata

7. Julie Said,

   September 15, 2009 @ 9:59 am

   I really loved this post, because it got to the heart of some things that annoy me and did it pretty rationally. (I often mentally revert to, “Oh shut up already!”)

8. Deiter Said,

   September 15, 2009 @ 10:13 am

   My wife never intended to go without an epidoodle, but fate made other plans. The epidoodlers at the hospital didn’t get to her in time (there were other difficult births going on at the time) so she was left to “experience” childbirth old school style. I have no idea what she was feeling, but judging from what I saw it must hurt something awful. (How this experience enhanced her life or of that of our child we may never know.)

   Props to all moms everywhere!

9. Dawn C. Said,

   September 15, 2009 @ 8:43 pm

   Awesome. Beautiful. I especially love the side note about the “high record of emergency births at Cedars.”

   And I have to agree about the bride being a genius.

10. Kara Said,

    September 15, 2009 @ 9:36 pm

    Beautifully thought out and written.

    Especially that final paragraph. wow- so true!

    (thank you Sivana for the definition of extro/introvert- I always have to explain to people I’m an introvert. They don’t get it. I can’t explain to them how exhausting it is to be cheery/friendly/happy with people.)

    And Cedars was my hospital-of-choice-if/when-I’m-finally-pregnant. Genius rational mom scores again imho.

    BEAUTIFUL post Dean- Duncan will be proud.

    I’m jealous, but of course I am since I’m a Scorpio

11. Aaron Said,

    September 15, 2009 @ 10:34 pm

    Awesome post.

    Every time I tell people that astrology is the same as racism, I always get the same result. But when I explain that racism is the same as astrology because it’s judging somebody by the conditions of their birth instead of the content of their character, they usually don’t have much to say. Hitting people with calm logic is amazing. Watching people use their thinking muscles is really amazing. Especially if they haven’t done it in awhile.

12. Geri Said,

    September 16, 2009 @ 6:39 am

    Dean,
    loved the post. Now after all of these years I know why I am so clumsy….yep, Gemini. I always thought it was because I was too busy looking at where I’d been to see where I was going.

13. fanisse Said,

    September 16, 2009 @ 1:24 pm

    Here are my confirmation bias based recommendations for pregnancy and birth:

    1st trimester: eat an diet heavy in watermelon and gummy bears.

    2nd trimester: get married

    3rd trimester: switch to a cream-based diet, if your weight gain is not too much OR if you loose some weight from week to week, add more cream.

    Time around due date: gather ingredients for frittata you will make during the first stage of labor, per recommendations from childbirth class.

    L&D: Whoops! no time for frittata, too busy convulsing and vomiting, that’s naturally, people, at home, pitocin was not involved when all this natural wonder was happening. Epidural, good nights sleep and birth at a reasonable hour.

    Post natal: order and eat as much food as you can because it is covered by insurance, if you’re lucky. Leave hospital soon because it’s noisy.

    Finally, deal with the complete shock of what has just happened and get used to the new arrangement.

    If you do these things, in exactly the order I have listed them, you will have a charming, engaging, delightful (at times) toddler two-and-a-half years later. If you skip even one of these steps, you risk things like colic, irritability, vague rashes, etc. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

14. jessiemarion Said,

    September 16, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

    I recommend continuing the cream based diet during breast feeding, if you choose to breast feed.

15. Phil Plait Said,

    September 17, 2009 @ 3:15 pm

    What about [[The Hawk]]?

    Still, I like it! I’ll put up a link tomorrow.

16. lisa Said,

    September 17, 2009 @ 8:03 pm

    psssst — if breastfeeding, fenugreek seed tea and/or hops (beer?) will really increase the ouput.

    so have some fenugreek tea or a beer.

    your choice.

17. Baby nonsense | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 11:37 am

    [...] you take all that and put it together, what you get is a funny and personal story of irrationality when it comes to baby time. I laughed a lot when I read his post, but I also found myself nodding both sagely and in [...]

18. dragonet2 Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 1:47 pm

    What a cute baby!

    Having not had one myself, but having friends who have borne children, the easier you can make labor, the better on the mom. And if the doctors treat you like shit, find another one.

    and: You have embarked on a wonderful experience, Kids are great and they bring a new dimension to your life. Congratulations.

19. Amanda Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 1:49 pm

    My epidural wasn’t completely effective and it slowed my labor down. My second was born completely naturally, and it went quickly and smoothly. So you’re completely right when it comes to personal experience. My sister in law was on cloud nine up until delivery due to her epidural. It’s different for everyone, and for every pregnancy.

    My water never broke, and my son was born with the amniotic sack still intact. The nurses kept going on and on about how that means the baby is blessed…(seriously? doesn’t mean much when you’re saying it to an atheist).

20. Tony Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 2:24 pm

    My wife had an epidural for our first son, but due to the quickness of her labor, she was forced to go natural with our second son. Having experienced both sides of this, I can honestly say that any woman who states that going natural is somehow better for the mother or the infant is an idiot. In this day and age, when we have the means to reduce terrible pain, to forgo medicine because of some unforeseen and false complication is lunacy. And, I would like to point out, the idea that getting an epidural somehow makes a woman less of a mother or reduces the joy of the moment is also completely false. In fact, it heightens the experience because the mother is in less pain and is more aware of the things around her. For all future mothers, if anyone ever suggests to you that you should go natural, pull their bottom lip over their head and ask them if that hurts.

21. Robb Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

    Entertaining article. Unfortunately, you seem to have just made up your example about hang gliding, which is particularly unfortunate in a skeptical article. In the US and Canada hang gliding is a self-regulated sport, true, but that doesn’t mean you can just buy a glider and go out and fly it. Most shops won’t sell you a one unless you can demonstrate that you’ve been adequately trained to fly it, which usually includes a well kept logbook and the name and contact information of your instructor. If you do manage to buy a glider, you won’t be able to fly anywhere pilots fly. They won’t let you. A serious accident can result in the loss of a flying site. Most sites these days require you to be a current member of the respective national organization which includes certification, proof of training and insurance.

    Most hang glider pilots have invested years and thousands of dollars in training alone. Accidents are reported to national organizations for statistical purposes and to improve training and equipment. It may be an “extreme sport” but it’s not a bunch of yahoos deciding to jump off cliffs one day.

22. Rebecca Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 4:43 pm

    @ Timothy Mills – (I do hope you get this reply)

    The safety of homebirth vs hospital birth is largly dependent upon what country you’re in!

    Here is a commentary based on two recent studies on homebirth comparing to hospital birth – in Canada vs US and the Netherlands. A lot of bad news for American homebirths. Other countries are a lot less infected by woo.

23. OtherRob Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 5:27 pm

    Tony (#20), the same thing happened to us. My wife had the epidoodle (I love that word) on our first, but the second came just too fast. There was never, for one second, any doubt with either one that she was going to get it with either child. Just didn’t have the option on the second.

    Dean, wonderful post.

24. Kathi Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 8:57 pm

    I love “His ability to melt me with a look has increased!”.

    The fact is no one can predict in advance what that birth day will bring.

    I have seen many examples of wonderful home-births and wish I could have tried one but it wasn’t in the cards. My first was an emergency C-section and the second was a V-back and considered high risk and only done in a hospital. They don’t even allow them now.

    I would have gladly had an epidoodle but was too far along to get one. Trust me. I wanted the drugs:).

    You should watch “The Business of Being Born’”. It’s a great film about home births.

    And wouldn’t it be wonderful to actually know what they see and hear and feel when they are such tiny creatures?

    Michael and I used to say how we could just sit and stare and watch them grow and be totally fascinated just watching them breathe in their cribs.

    Such unabashed love!

    Or was it our minds going to mush because we were so sleep deprived?

25. Ian Said,

    September 18, 2009 @ 11:53 pm

    Here from badastronomy….you’re dead spot on.

    The BS people tried to fill our heads with when the Spousal Overunit was due with protodork #1. Amazing the crap people believe in this, our modern age.

26. Medea Said,

    September 19, 2009 @ 12:23 am

    Congratulations!

    I appreciate your experience, but you are just as guilty in this article of putting anecdotes over science as our non-skeptic friends. Just because your baby breastfed well doesn’t mean there aren’t peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that epidurals have adverse effects on breastfeeding. An anecdote from a doctor (you know, the people who profit from more interventions) saying that most of the c-sections are from home births gone wrong doesn’t mean that it is rooted in rationality. It is a a fact that the more interventions the more likely a mother is to have a cesarean. Just because western nations have a low death rate doesn’t mean that it can’t be improved- Japan is a first world nation with a much lower mortality rate than the US partially because it has virtually no option for epidurals. Science isn’t always anti-natural. There is a time and place for both natural births and births with interventions, and neither profit nor ignorance nor tradition should come in the way of deciding when these two worlds should cooperate.
    Don’t fall into the same trap our unscientific brethren do. Don’t think your experience trumps scientific data.

27. Celia Said,

    September 19, 2009 @ 10:55 am

    @Timothy Mills …I was all set to do “natural” but due to severe edema and high blood pressure had to be induced a couple of weeks early at the hospital. Since my body was being induced, I tried to NOT have an epidoodle to see first if my body would start pushing the baby out on its own. Nope. After almost a whole day of unspeakable contractions, I finally said GIMME THE EPI…Everything was going well until the head popped out and surprise, my baby had the cord wrapped ’round her wee neck. Luckily, highly skilled doctors and nurses remedied the situation and she was fine. I worry about little unexpected things like that when people do home births or water births or forest births or whatever, out of the range of immediate assistance from a qualified staff of doctors/nurses. Immediate assistance shouldn’t be an ambulance ride away from a hospital, sometimes seconds count. just my humble opinion. I am all for ‘natural’ if it’s possible but then I think, ‘natural’ should be natural all the way then, as in, then why get vaccinations, medication, stitches, etc…starts to seem kinda hypocritical if you look down at one aspect of birth but accept other bennies. Anyway…

28. Mike Sperry Said,

    September 19, 2009 @ 12:10 pm

    Great post, and congrats on the baby!

    On that subject of “Babies bring luck!”, I guess it depends on how you define “luck”. If you define it as some mystical magic that strikes and suddenly good things happen to you, well yeah, that’s BS.
    The best definition of luck I ever heard was “Opportunity meeting preparedness”. It’s a sort of “you make your own luck” kind of thing. If you’re ready for something good to happen, and it does happen, you’re in a position to take the greatest advantage of that event.

    And if you’ve got a baby on the way, your thoughts are going to be very involved with doing whatever it takes to make as good a life for that baby as possible. So you’re going to send out more resumes and generally be more open to new opportunities. And sure enough, when one comes along, you’re in the best frame of mind to take the best advantage of it.

    So in that respect, yes, babies bring luck.

    (but I’m willing to bet the people who have told you this meant it in the magical woo-woo way)

29. Stacy McKenna Seip Said,

    September 20, 2009 @ 1:25 am

    “natural” in my child’s family includes a father born two months early and a first cousin once removed who was a March of Dimes poster child (open heart surgery), and another cousin with severe CP. Knowing this, we registered at Huntington in Pasadena.

    Good thing, too, as my water broke at week 33. There were drugs to stall my labor (5 times in 4 days) in order for them to have time to give me/him steroids to speed his lung development, drugs to help me cope with the pain while they waited for me to dilate far enough to feel comfortable giving me an epidural, and then finally the epidural (technically before I was “adequately” dilated) which was the only thing that allowed me to relax enough to dilate and actually finish labor…

    All hail the science, tech, and drugs that kept my son alive for the 29 days he spent in the NICU, not to mention the similar advances that kept his father and my cousins alive over 30 years before that, not to mention the couple of friends who would have died without medical intervention/C-sections.

    As for Cedars’ record – aren’t emergencies what hospitals are FOR?! Yeesh.

30. Timothy Mills Said,

    September 24, 2009 @ 5:30 am

    @ Rebecca:

    Yes, if people are choosing homebirth for anti-science reasons, they are probably going to make other choices for bad reasons, which may increase the chance of something going wrong.

    @ Celia:

    You are right that it is very important to have competent attendants. We (my wife and I) have no intention of trying an unassisted birth. For example, I am confident that our midwife could have dealt with the cord thing. For Kaia’s birth, she did not hesitate to recommend hospital transfer when progress was stalled.

    @ all:

    I would reiterate that the (peer-reviewed quantitative) evidence I’ve seen suggest that homebirths attended by competent midwifes, where there are medical facilities (ie, hospitals) nearby in case of emergency, are no less safe in terms of various outcomes than hospital births (when appropriately measured on an intention-to-treat basis).

    To make things crystal clear, we did not choose homebirth because it’s “natural” or any of that woo stuff. We chose it because we believed, on the basis of the peer-reviewed evidence we looked at, that it was at least as safe as hospital birth for us. (Some people fall into high-risk categories that contra-indicate home birth.) Once we had satisfied ourselves that we had two acceptably safe options, we went with the one that seemed (a) safer and (b) more emotionally appealing.

    I have to acknowledge that some countries and regions are better equipped to accommodate homebirths than others. In America, for example, I’d guess that insurance wouldn’t cover it, and there would be very few scientifically literate (ie, non-woo) midwives competent to perform homebirths anyway. In which case, you’re better off at hospital. But here in the UK, homebirth is (at least for some areas) a choice that is supported by policy and by the availability of competent midwives. I understand things are even more favourable in the Netherlands.

    Unfortunately, whenever I engage in discussions such as these, people on both sides (pro-science and pro-woo) seem willing to conflate the many relevant variables (place of birth, intended place of birth, maternal risk factors, institutional support for homebirth, “woo” factors in decision-making, etc). While there are telling and important correlations among some of these, it is possible and important to do what we can to tease them apart. I have suspicions that many obstetricians don’t do this with regard to homebirth, but I hope that I remain open to solid evidence on either side of the debate.

31. t-storm Said,

    September 24, 2009 @ 3:06 pm

    @Madea

    He caveated his statements about breastfeeding by saying that his personal experience is not data but that it worked for him. He never said that since it worked for them it works for everybody.

    And nowhere does it say there are more ceseareans at Cedar’s due to home births. It says that Cedars is the best place to have an at risk pregnancy in the area and if you are having complications with a homebirth then it makes sense to go there, therefore driving up the numbers of emergencies.

    Also, stating that a doctor has an agenda because he stands to profit from a situation is kind of shitty. Nothing the doctor told them will affect his bottom line at all. He was asked a question and answered it. I seriously doubt he thought over in his head “hey, what can I tell them that will make me more money?”, or even goes around town telling people how awesome Cedars is because if you’re gonna be a fetus you’d better come to Cedars.

32. geek anachronism Said,

    September 25, 2009 @ 2:22 am

    Can we NOT tell women they are crazy, or stupid, or any number of unflattering things simply because they aren’t doing what you think is right/normal/okay? Homebirths are statistically safer than hospital labours (for comparable subjects – i.e. women not needing interventions and low risk). I chose a hospital because I needed interventions – induced early because of high blood pressure. I had an ob. who used gel to ripen the cervix (2 doses over 12 hours) THEN pitocin. Turns out I only needed one dose of gel before I launched into labour and birthed my daughter six and a half hours later. I used what I considered (through research) to be the safest form of pain relief for me – gas. It worked well enough. Pain cannot be judged from the outside – thanks to endless movies and cultural indoctrination midwives didn’t think I was in labour or experiencing real contractions because I didn’t look like I was in that much pain. Until I started panicking about them not believing me, I just looked like I was uncomfortable.

    Simply put, do NOT tell me what my pain is and isn’t.

    The point isn’t some mystical ‘natural’ birth – it is that the less intervention, the better the outcome. This includes standards like ‘no food’ (seriously? my hospital had food on the birth bag packing list), monitoring, positioning and environment. This isn’t mystical, it is fact, with studies and science and all sorts of rational and logical might behind it. Less intervention = more healthy mothers and babies. Once you get induced you’re at a higher risk of needing an epidural (particularly if you get massive doses of pitocin). Once you get an epidural you are more likely to stall. Once you stall you are more likely to need a caesarian. And you’ve gone from something painful but not harmful to invasive surgery with the massive jump in risks that entails.

    The cord situation isn’t terrifically dangerous in and of itself and is usually easily managed. My daughter’s cord was wrapped too tightly to slip it back over her head so it was cut while she was still inside me which meant she was at even more risk of needing breathing support (early, induced labour, medicinal interference thanks to incompentents and fast labour). We were lucky in that she was a strong little thing and breathed fine on her own but I have no doubt at all that any trained and competent midwife who handles homebirths could have dealt with that.

33. dean cameron Said,

    September 26, 2009 @ 1:39 pm

    If you’re lucky, like me, you get to make money doing something you love.

    I would *GUESS* there are as many doctors who practice evidence based medicine who love what they do as there are midwives. And they’re both doing it for profit.

    There is nothing wrong with making an honest buck. Especially if it’s doing something you love.

    “Profit” is becoming a dirty word, which is a shame as profit is responsible for reducing the amount of tiny little coffins.

    Personally, what I’ve seen of “The business of having babies” on teh internets fills me with the deep rage that I get when confronted with anti-science, anti-human propaganda. Sorry. Other people don’t see it that way. (Certainly not the distributors of the film who made a profit.) I’m not an authority by any stretch. I’m a new dad who has spent a fair portion of my life *trying* to figure out how to think about things.

    The fine folks who are presenting their home birth anecdotes are proving my extreme sports analogy, the point of which the Canadian hang glider seems to have flown over and missed.

    Home births are now a choice. If something goes wrong, you go to a hospital. That’s all. It’s a good thing. We’re all better for it. No tiny little coffins and that’s what we all want, right?

    Thank you.

34. Julie Said,

    September 26, 2009 @ 3:48 pm

    More on the extreme sports analogy….when I was due, I didn’t dilate or efface, nothing. No labor happening at all, and I had a big baby inside with a head circumference that was “off the charts” according to two ultrasounds. My doctor, who is very anti-C-section in general, recommended a scheduled C-section. Then he went out of town for a couple of days, leaving me to Google like crazy and look for answers as to whether this was the best course of action.

    I came across story after story from midwives about women who brought huge babies into the world without any anesthesia. What warriors, what champions those mothers were. They did it. Sometimes at home in their bathtubs! I did find articles here and there about macrosomia (big baby syndrome) that were more inclined toward a C-section or early induction of labor (not a workable possibility for me as I was not anywhere near labor), but there were so many more articles bragging about natural births. I was extremely vulnerable at that point in my pregnancy, and I wondered if I could possibly wait and go into labor on my own. I found article after article from more midwives and natural birth proponents who said that waiting until the baby came on its own was the right thing to do.

    Lo and behold, the day of my scheduled C-section, my water broke. And we raced to the hospital hours early, where a nurse cheered me on to fight my doctor’s recommendation and have my labor! She told me she would have to hook me up to Pitocin, since after the membrane ruptures, most hospitals will not let a mother go more than 24 hours without delivery, and my labor was still nowhere near happening. My contractions were very light. I would not be allowed to walk around.

    All of this conflicted with the natural stuff I’d been reading. I had a lot of nervousness about letting the hospital do its thing. Then, my doctor came in and explained the risks involved. I felt I knew them already, as I had done all my Googling. Risk of shoulder dystocia about 7%. Possible risk of a permanent injury due to that complication. Since the risks were all to our baby, we went ahead with my scheduled C-section, which only involved slight risk to me. And this nutty nurse gave me such disappointed looks, like I’d really let her down. Even she was urging me to have this great birth experience and be this warrior, against doctor’s orders–and a doctor known for NOT doing C-sections at that.

    I was terribly disappointed to miss out on the whole experience of labor, having my husband at my side while the baby entered the world. He was at my side, but I was horribly uncomfortable and didn’t react well to the meds I was given. I had extreme anxiety and shortness of breath, which did nothing for the anxiety. Only when I was given some anti-anxiety meds (nope, no idea what they were) was I able to relax enough to close my eyes and just wait for the whole thing to be over. Not the birth experience I wanted, until I heard the baby come out okay and saw him. He was enormous. He looked like a one-month-old at birth.

    And still, when I hear about women who’ve delivered ten pound babies with no drugs, I still wonder if I could have done it.

    But recently, I met another mom, of a baby slightly smaller than mine. My son was 9 pounds 4 ounces, with a 14.75 inch head circumference. This mother’s kid had been 9 pounds 2 ounces, with a similarly large head. She said her doctor favored natural birth, and so she had pushed and pushed, and there had been a lot of trouble getting the baby out. He didn’t get enough oxygen on his way out, and now he has severe cerebral palsy. He will suffer with that disability all his life. She has worked hard to get him up to a higher level of functioning, but he is mentally and physically hampered.

    This woman owns a little shop where I sometimes get clothes (or did, back in the days when my family actually had money–thanks, economy). So I’ve met her maybe four times. And I almost cried when she told me this story, and I had to give her a big hug. It was the one story that made me realize that my husband and I made absolutely the right decision to get the C-section, and it finally absolved me of the need to prove myself in labor. And it finally made me truly angry at people who urge women to have a natural birth in risky situations like mine was.

    Even skeptical folks like myself are susceptible to the urge to “win” at the extreme sport of childbrith, I suppose. So I really think anyone approaching labor in that way is full of some serious crap now. I mean, baby out safe is all we’re really going for here. And C-sections let that happen, so they are awesome. Yay, C-sections.

35. Timothy Mills Said,

    September 29, 2009 @ 1:57 am

    Yes. Bottom line: no tiny little coffins. (And also no unnecessary lifelong impairments, etc.)

    Most of us here have a good respect for evidence. We just haven’t all read the same evidence. Some of us have got the doctors’ advice (ie, evidence by proxy through people who ought to know). Most of us have done online research. Some of us have looked at original research articles.

    I think it’s great to have a forum like this where people who respect evidence can present their positions and the evidence behind them. Maybe this way we’ll all come to a more complete and accurate picture of things.

    And of course, as humans, we also want to share stories – so there’s no harm, among evidence-minded folks, of sharing our anecdotes. We know not to treat anecdotes as equivalent to scientific data.

36. Heath Said,

    September 29, 2009 @ 9:46 am

    Keep on preachin! You rock Chainsaw!!!!

37. Arnold73 Said,

    October 23, 2009 @ 3:31 am

    I venture to say that in the writings of every philosopher, whether living or dead, who has written a significant amount about philosophical problems that are hard enough to be significant, there are already some assertions that we can know to be falsehoods. ,

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