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34 Comments »

1. Laura Said,

   April 9, 2009 @ 2:04 pm

   I like to shop at Wal Mart around 8:00-9:00am Sunday mornings when everyone is in church, getting ready for church, or is sleeping in because they have no use for church. I get a close parking spot, and in and out without a hassle. It is lovely!

2. Julie Said,

   April 9, 2009 @ 6:54 pm

   It’s so interesting how religion invades my space at work. But usually when I’m shopping, things are pretty peaceful!

3. Harry Said,

   April 10, 2009 @ 2:32 am

   I empathize with your experience. Your blog entry invites many comments but I will stay focused on my main question. You assert “if this god exists and is omniscient and omnipotent, then we can’t have free will.” I’ve seen this line of reasoning many times before and it has never made sense to me. Why would the existence of an omniscient and omnipotent god preclude free will?

4. Kelly Said,

   April 10, 2009 @ 5:08 am

   Hi, Harry:

   Yes, it would. Omniscience negates free will. I think it’s best explained as an example. I’ll use the Christian god and the concept of hell/eternal suffering to explain.

   God, in his omniscience, already knows how everything will carry itself out. He knows a being will eventually be created, and for giggles, we’ll call her Kelly Gorski.

   God’s omniscience dictates that she will already choose to suffer eternally. She will die “unsaved.”

   He creates her anyway.

   So here we are. Omniscience is, in fact, “all-deciding” in that all decisions, via omniscience, were already made prior to creation. The creation, then, was created to carry out the predetermined motions that the creator knew prior to creation.

   This means that woman, Kelly Gorski, was created for the sole purpose of having suffering administered to her for eternity. She can’t freely choose it, though, because that decision was already made prior to her creation. Without an agent and autonomy that cultivate free will, we can’t have it.

   So Kelly Gorski, like all other people, was created to carry out the motions predetermined by God.

5. catgirl Said,

   April 10, 2009 @ 10:46 am

   “I could have walked away. I could have yelled. I could have quietly asked her to stop. I could have gotten into a heated debate over whether her god even exists.”

   Doing any of things would probably have led to the last one, a heated debate. You did the right thing to say nothing. In this particular case, what she did was harmless and she had the intention of doing something good for your kid. It’s better to just smile and nod, the same way you do to a kid who is trying to perform a magic trick on you. Arguing is generally pointless.

6. Harry Said,

   April 11, 2009 @ 8:36 am

   Yes I got your line of reasoning on Omniscience and free will the first time around. Since you are holding to it, I’ve done some research on the topic. Seems this philosophical debate has been going for a long time without resolution. On that point alone I think it is fair to say rational consideration favors both our views, personal preference rules in this case rather than logic.

7. Kelly G. Said,

   April 11, 2009 @ 1:30 pm

   I have to disagree with you, Harry. Just because things are still “being debated” doesn’t make both sides of equal merit or validity. A great example is that of creationism being taught in schools as another “theory” for how we all got here. We know creationism/ID doesn’t meet state academic standards, and it isn’t even a scientific theory, yet people debate it. They can debate all they want; that doesn’t affect the irrational basis of creationism as some explanation for the origins of the universe.

   In the same vein, people may be debating omniscience and how it negates free will, but that doesn’t affect the fact that its existence would negate free will. As I stated above, if a being knows all, then no one can choose anything otherwise, and since this being knew of the decisions prior to the people even being born, the decisions can’t be theirs to make. So here, preferences don’t count, like I think you want them to. Logic trumps.

   I simply can’t see tolerating an irrational belief as something rational.

8. Harry Said,

   April 11, 2009 @ 11:08 pm

   To say omniscience negates free will because it must is circular reasoning. Just to be clear I’m not defending religion or creationism. I find your position contains an element of righteousness that echoes the righteousness you encountered in the store. The discussions of causality, determinism and free will seem well founded in logic and not at all like the sophistry seen in the creationism vs. evolution discussions. I suspect underlying your assertion about omniscience and free will is the assumption rational analysis must generate a single correct understanding of “the truth.” Similar to the polarized thinking you found so unpleasant when expressed vibrantly by the woman in the store.

9. Kelly Said,

   April 12, 2009 @ 7:06 am

   To say omniscience negates free will because it must is circular reasoning.

   Hi, Harry:

   That’s not my argument. My argument is simply that if all is known, say, by one being, we can’t be free agents because all decisions were made prior to our making them. This isn’t some fabricated form of righteousness or arrogance; it’s simple logic and recognition of reality.

10. Kelly Said,

    April 12, 2009 @ 7:07 am

    *Because these decisions were never ours to make in the first place…

11. Siamang Said,

    April 12, 2009 @ 9:18 pm

    I see Kelly explicitly spelling out exactly why she thinks that Omniscience trumps free will, and it makes sense to me.

    Then I see Harry posting “Nun-unhhhh”.

    Then Kelly explains it again, even more clearly. It makes sense to me, because she explains it well.

    Then Harry:

    “Nuh-unnh…. I did research. You’re wrong in a way that I will not explain.”

    Kelly : “Look, really it’s simple… A to B to C..”

    So, what I’m looking for in Harry is actually ENGAGING the argument. Because, right now you’re just doing a Monty Python sketch: Contradiction.

    No it’s not!
    Yes it is!
    No!
    Yes, it certainly is!
    It isn’t!

12. Harry Said,

    April 12, 2009 @ 11:09 pm

    Calling me stupid is the pot calling the kettle black. Anyone can use Google or Wikipedia which is an easy place to start. Kelly repeating your position does not make it more correct. I have already agreed your argument has logic. I simply do not find it consistent in a larger context of thought and logic will not resolve the difference. Discussions around this topic have been going on for centuries! I’m dubious but willing to go down the road of presenting an alternative view in more detail. I’ll get back to you in a few days, I have some Wikipedia reading to assimilate.

13. Kelly Said,

    April 13, 2009 @ 5:14 am

    Harry,

    The only reason I repeated myself was that you thought my argument was “To say omniscience negates free will because it must is circular reasoning,” which it wasn’t, so I assumed I had been unclear. But then you say (after, I’m pretty sure, you accuse me of calling you stupid), “I simply do not find it consistent in a larger context,” which makes absolutely no sense to me. Either it makes sense or it doesn’t, Harry. Context doesn’t affect the truth value in this particular case because omniscience is an absolute that has become an attribute of some unfalsifiable being. An absolute is an absolute, without regard for context.

    If you want to continue this discussion, you can email me at kellygorski at gmail dot com. Since this isn’t what my post was about, and since I want to keep comments on topic, I’d prefer email.

14. zoni Said,

    April 13, 2009 @ 1:06 pm

    I am confused (or stupid, or both

    If free will were true, how would an omniscient creature (knowing what I will choose) negate my free will?

    I think that if the omniscient creature was the christian god and he wanted me to choose faith in him, knowing that I won’t (since he’s omniscient) it is really futile on his part — but that’s altogether a different bit of illogic in that scenario.

    Is this a parallel to what you’re saying: if a random number is generated (let’s assume it’s random and not get into the weeds by saying nothing is truly random) – to a human it’s random, but to an omniscient creature, it’s not, since he’s omniscient. Isn’t it still random to the human?

15. Harry Said,

    April 13, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

    Ok, Kelly we can continue via email. My comment about being called stupid was addressed to Siamang. I should have made that more clear, sorry. To Zoni and anyone else who truly wants clarity, please do some reading. Look up Free Will in Wikipedia. Follow all the links. My position is known as compatibilism and Kelly’s as incompatibilism.

16. Siamang Said,

    April 13, 2009 @ 2:55 pm

    When did I call you stupid?

    Note: Harry, telling us to google something or look it up in Wikipedia does not constitute engaging the argument.

    I wasn’t calling you stupid, I was saying that you weren’t engaging the conversation, you were just contradicting Kelly without actually presenting the position.

17. Chris Said,

    April 13, 2009 @ 6:31 pm

    Now to go off on a different angle, I spent this past weekend at http://www.sakuracon.org/ . It includes lots of people of all ages dressing up as their favorite anime, manga or video game character (my daughter went as Link from the the Zelda game).

    It also took place on Easter Sunday, and I actually saw two people dressed as Jesus. The first one I was was one with the thorn crown in the Dealer’s Room (where there are booths to buy videos, books, clothes, toys, etc). Then the second one I was as I entered at 9:30 Easter morning standing in the lobby of the convention center holding a cross. As I walked my I noted “It is Easter, you have risen!”.

    I then saw that particular Jesus as one of the chess pieces in “Cosplay Chess” (cosplay = costume play, something some of you will encounter when your kids get older). He was playing the White King.

    By the way, I have no idea which video game or anime includes Jesus. My badge label did include the words “Clueless Mom” right under my name (by the way, the rules are that a parent must be on site for any participant under 18 years old).

18. Chris Said,

    April 13, 2009 @ 9:08 pm

    Oh, somehow touched by the FSM’s noodly kindness… I stumbled on a likeness of that particular Jesus:
    http://profile.imageshack.us/user/solexskc/images/detail/#25/img0669b.jpg

    This was while looking for other copies of my daughter, who personally did lead me to this likeness of herself:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/tofuguns/3435301631/in/set-72157616590864267/

    (part of the fun of a “con” like this is to take pictures and to have pictures taken in the cosplay!)

    (If you click on my name you will find that I do help make the costumes, and she is doing some of the creation herself — I only made the tunic, she did the rest! Teenagers are fun, especially when we share a sense of humor.)

19. catgirl Said,

    April 14, 2009 @ 7:28 am

    I don’t agree with Harry’s viewpoint, but I do agree that Siaming was really immature to make fun of him. Siaming, implying that someone is acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum is not rational, does nothing to support your own argument, and is rude. If you’re frustrated that someone does not understand your arguments, it is not OK to ridicule them. Instead, you need to do a better job of explaining it clearly. If someone pretends to agree with you just so people won’t make fun of them, you haven’t really accomplished anything. Let’s all try to stay above that and act like adults.

20. Siamang Said,

    April 14, 2009 @ 11:11 am

    I was not making fun of Harry.

    I did not say he was acting like a child having a temper tantrum. That is your false interpretation. I was saying he was merely CONTRADICTING without explaining or engaging the discussion. I used the word “Nuh-unnh”… and somehow you think I’m saying he’s a child holding a temper tantrum. All I am saying is that he is denying something Kelly is saying in a way that communicates nothing more than denial. Any further accusation is misinterpretation by you.

    In the future, please read all of my words with every possible charitable interpretation, for that is how I attempt to read yours.

    Harry not engaging the argument is IN MY OPINION ONLY rude, dismissive and patronizing to Kelly, who was exceedingly patient with him.

    When I called him out on his evasion and asked him to elaborate, he overreacted and said I was calling him stupid.

    Please point to the exact line where I called him stupid.

    So now Harry has added a false accusation, which IN MY OPINION ONLY doesn’t add to understanding of his position.

    Catgirl, I was not making fun of him, I did not say he was acting like a child nor did I say he was having a temper tantrum, nor did I call him stupid. I was explaining my point of view IN MY OPINION ONLY.

    You may not agree with my point of view. You may not agree that Harry was being evasive, condescending and dismissive to a well-argued explaination by Kelly IN MY OPINION ONLY. But I was not being rude, I was calling for engagement by Harry.

    If, as you say, I need to do a better job communicating clearly, let me take that advice now and attempt something better:

    Harry. I did not call you stupid. In the future, please do not make unwarranted accusations about me. In the future, please try to give reasons why you disagree, otherwise, IN MY OPINION ONLY, I feel you are being rude, dismissive and patronizing to Kelly.

21. Harry Said,

    April 14, 2009 @ 3:43 pm

    Siamang,

    Generally when someone does a parody it is a putdown. But I’ll take you at your word and apologize for my misunderstanding. However the shoe is on the other foot if you believe I was being dismissive or patronizing. I feel it would be patronizing to cut and paste text from Wikipedia or other sites. I see the unwillingness to check on my recommendation as a stacked deck against anything I might present for argument. As Kelly wrote “be mindful of your own beliefs, to analyze them, question them, and then to be mindful of others’ beliefs and personal space.” I see unwillingness to spend five minutes reading about the topic at hand evidence of an unexamined belief. I have already given enough information in my posts to resolve this discussion at least to a clear paradox. This incidentally is where I am now because I have been reading about free-will and find compelling arguments that it does not exist.

22. Siamang Said,

    April 14, 2009 @ 4:14 pm

    “I feel it would be patronizing to cut and paste text from Wikipedia or other sites. ”

    I wasn’t asking you to cut and paste… I was asking you to take part in the discussion. Actually what I really mean to say is that you fail to convince me of your point if you say “Your wrong” but then don’t follow up with a why.

    I read the Wikipedia entry, and I’m sorry but I don’t understand it. It merely seems to assert that compatibilism means that you hold the view that free will is compatible with omniscience. It doesn’t say HOW it’s compatible. Or if it does, it does so in the midst of a lot of philosophical jargon that I don’t understand.

    Which is why, if you would like to convince me of your view, and you hold that view, that it would be helpful if you would engage the discussion with your reasoning and then maybe I’d learn something.

    “I see unwillingness to spend five minutes reading about the topic at hand evidence of an unexamined belief.”

    Well, since I don’t believe in God, I find the notion of compatiblism moot. It’s not so much an unexamined belief, it’s an unexamined controversy within the theology of a religion I do not hold.

    Further, I don’t care if free will is incompatible with omniscience or not, since I have not seen evidence for an omniscient being and I don’t think that there’s any way to either tell if we have free will or not, nor what one would ever do differently in either case.

    It’s all angels on pins.

    First prove I have free will, then we’ll discuss the ramifications of that. Or prove that we don’t, then we’ll discuss the ramifications of that.

    I just stack it into the pile of “unknowable unknowns” and get on with my life. I do suspect that the very concept of free will is a human invention, and poorly defined to the point where it means nothing specific enough at all to say whether or not it exists.

23. Harry Said,

    April 15, 2009 @ 8:57 am

    Siamang,

    Well said, I concede your points. I will sketch two compatibilist examples. This won’t convince an incompatibilist, but gives a taste of how such arguments could be constructed.

    1)Let us say you have a friend who hates onions, you offer a plate of onions and she refuses. Your foreknowledge of her refusal did not prevent her from making a free choice. It might be argued knowledge of her choice is not certain. Put an omniscient god into the scenario and the relationship does not change, god’s foreknowledge in no way prevents her from making a free choice.

    2)Election predictions are now accurate enough to know the winner before voting booths close. Such foreknowledge does not remove free-will from late voters.

    As you point out the Wikipedia article has lots of words and gets very deep. Keep in mind it is summarizing 2000+ years of discussion about free-will and related topics such as determinism, mind, and causality. I agree these kinds of discussions have little to do with our daily lives, with one exception; thinking about these kinds of things can shift our experience of life in subtle ways which improve our ability to enjoy ordinary things. Maybe our minds have more resources for daily experiences by pushing beyond our repetitive thinking processes.

    During my reading on free-will it became clear that the existence of an omniscient and omnipotent god does not logically follow if free-will does not exist. Similarly there is not a logical connection between the meaning of life and free-will. Certainly philosophical arguments can be made but logic will not distinguish between them.

    I see this as coming full circle, at the risk of starting another argument I would say Kelly’s optimal response would be to make friends with the woman in the store.

24. Kelly Gorski Said,

    April 15, 2009 @ 9:01 am

    Harry,

    Your examples don’t work because omniscience is an absolute, not a prediction based on information. What you’re providing is a false comparison. It is the absolute nature within omniscience that negates the autonomy inherent in free will.

25. Harry Said,

    April 15, 2009 @ 11:49 am

    Kelly,

    Yes that is a strong incompatibilist position. I can put myself in that mindset now and it makes perfect sense. This is not about logic or rationality. Your mental presuppositions determine what seems valid and what seems invalid, this happens BEFORE logic or rationality. You might find the experience of a compatibilist mindset enlightening. I cannot explain exactly how to make such a shift but the essence is to be willing to see it and desire the understanding. It is the most elemental, most fundamental application of choice.

26. Siamang Said,

    April 15, 2009 @ 8:46 pm

    Harry,

    If that is your case, for compatibilism, let me propose a thought experiment and see if it holds up. I think where your Onion example falls down is that you didn’t create the onion nor your friend’s taste buds.

    Let’s work it this way: Assume I am Dr. Frankenstein.

    Let us assume that I have a Creature. A stunning woman I have named Eva. Yes, her hair is very tall and curly, with lightning-white streaks on the sides of it. But otherwise she is quite beautiful.

    Now, I have built her. And when I designed her, I was very detail oriented. Some might say I was infinitely so. I designed her taste buds to loath Onions.

    I have also genetically designed a variety of onion that is especially loathsome to Eva.

    I have also designed Eva’s mind, so that she is extremely reluctant to retry foods she does not like.

    I put the plate with the onion in front of Eva.

    But that is not enough. As a mad scientist, I also have invented a time-machine. You did not know how multi-talented I am, did you? But anyway, BEFORE I invented Eva, I went forward in time to this very evening and witnessed her refusing that onion. With that knowledge, I then built Eva to loathe onions.

    And now, Eva refuses the onion, just as I foresaw AND made certain would happen.

    Who is more to blame for the onion being uneaten. Me or Eva? How much of Eva’s refusal to eat the onion is a result of her will, and how much the result of my will?

    See, I think where your analogy breaks down is you are postulating finite characters making predictions about others. God supposedly made us what we are. So he made some of us hate onions AFTER he knew that onion hating would land us in hell.

    Or so the story goes. Again, not my religion. But at least that’s how I see this controversy.

27. Harry Said,

    April 15, 2009 @ 11:53 pm

    Siamang,

    I hope it is clear this is not a logically resolvable discussion. I’m willing to go this one round but suppose you successfully argue till I have no plausible response. That demonstrates I am not able to make a good compatibilist case, but it cannot demonstrate compatibilist ideas are invalid. The reverse is also true. To stump you in this discussion does not make the incompatibilist position less valid. To claim otherwise would make us the arbitrators of reality.

    Also I would like to also point out a full exploration of this topic might literally take us to every sphere of human endeavor. This is not a topic to be unraveled in a few paragraphs or even a few pages.

    I believe the essence of your argument is Dr Frankenstein created Eve and therefore has compete dominion over her actions and thoughts. Additionally he has complete foreknowledge of her actions therefore Eve cannot make free choices.

    As you have pointed out god is absolute in power and knowledge. But Dr Frankenstein has dominion only over Eve not over all existence. Hence Eve is a machine in the shape of a woman. Free-will is not attributable to a machine. (I’ve glossed over huge areas of discussion such as mind, creation (as process not as religion), and duality).

    To continue this discussion I will give Dr Frankenstein omniscience and omnipotence over all things. This brings us to determinism and causality. We know from Chaos theory that a deterministic system can be unpredictable. In other words we can know everything about a system and still not be able to predict its action. This is not a human failing but an aspect of existence. It could be said god built surprise into the fabric of the universe. Hold that thought while we look at causality. We know from quantum mechanics that acausality exists. Events can occur out of sequence or without apparent cause. There is some evidence that acausality occurs at every level not just at sub-atomic scales. By implication our perception of cause and effect is flawed or completely wrong. So we have a universe that does not follow cause and effect as we humans demand and is able to surprise even the omniscient Dr Frankenstein.

    Yes I know there are holes everywhere and that is exactly my point. For every claim I make you counter, then I counter, etc, etc. Both our arguments can be logical and rational yet we never arrive at consensus. Parallel tracks going to infinity.

28. Siamang Said,

    April 16, 2009 @ 8:05 am

    I agree that it’s an unresolvable case. I was merely stating where I think your example erred, and that was by omitting the belief that God designed us.

    Now you’re bringing in quantum uncertainty and chaos theory, which I agree bears more resemblance to the world I see around me.

    But I think you are describing a world where God is not omniscient. By bringing in unknowable futures, you are throwing omniscience out the window.

    I fail to see how throwing away one prong of compatibilism (omniscience is compatible with free will) by throwing out omniscience, or redefining omniscience to mean “partial, limited niscience”.

    I understand we could both argue this until the universe suffers heat death. But I think you’re breaking your own logical suppositions here.

    Why don’t you just say that you believe in partial but not total omniscience?

29. Siamang Said,

    April 16, 2009 @ 12:59 pm

    I should correct that sentence above to something like:

    I fail to see how throwing away one prong of compatibilism still supports compatibilism.

30. Siamang Said,

    April 16, 2009 @ 1:02 pm

    And I know that niscience is not a word. It’s my attempt at a Michael-Scottism.

    “I’m not superstitious. But I am a *little* stitious.”

31. Harry Said,

    April 16, 2009 @ 5:45 pm

    Siamang,

    That was one of the holes I was referring to. To restore absolute omniscience requires a larger discussion about the nature of time and space. Julian Barbour’s book “The End of Time” has a thought provoking and attractive perspective on that topic. And there are other ways of arguing the case for omniscience and free-will, I was trying to keep it short. But all that aside, I must emphasize that both the compatibilist and incompatibilist views are logically sound. Since they are mutually exclusive this indicates to me that the problem is defined incorrectly. We are asking the wrong questions. It’s like arguing about what species of dragon live near the edge of the Earth. The question presupposes a flat earth and the existence of dragons. Neither presupposition is true as we now know. Exactly what presuppositions are wrong in the free-will discussion is not yet clear. I find it much more useful when encountering these kinds of conflicts to be open to both sides of the discussion. Being able to mentally move around gives me freedom and insight not available if I get stuck on one side of a paradox. I suggest you experiment with being a compatibilist. Instead of looking at why it is wrong think of reasons why it must be true. You have nothing to lose and a bigger mental universe in which to play.

32. J. Keenan Said,

    June 4, 2009 @ 9:22 am

    “Yes, Wal-Mart—every recession-affected person has been there at least once this week, I guarantee you, and we, as a family, are no exception.”

    No, not every recession-affected person has shopped at Wal-Mart. In fact, there is no reason a rational person would promote that business.

    Why did you not expect to find ignorant crazy people at Wal-Mart?

33. Keeping you cool when confronted by christian crazies - TeakDoor.com - The Thailand Forum Said,

    June 12, 2009 @ 12:21 am

    [...] from an atheist woman about how a complete stranger had approached her in Wal-Mart and began praying over her 15-week-old child. He asked readers how they would respond if something like this happened to them as well as a few [...]

34. dersk Said,

    June 12, 2009 @ 5:58 am

    Well, given that wars have been fought over free will vs. omniscience (predestinarianism or something like that, wasn’t it?) you won’t get it resolved in blog comments.

    My responses to the woman would be:

    - Smile sweetly and say “Thanks, but she’s already had Satan’s blessing.” Oh, and if she were only old enough to teach how to say ‘redrum.’ And walk away.

    - Smile and say “Thank you, but I’m a bit offended by you imposing your religion on us.” And walk away.

    - If I were feeling energetic, make up some silly dance and chant, circle around her for minutes (going basically for maximum embarrassment), and then tell her that’s how we do blessings in my religion. If she reacts, tell her I was just applying the golden rule.

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