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Updated to add: This wasn’t clear enough in the original post, below, but we did know he would get religious content at the Lutheran preschool we chose. (We’ve been listening to the bible verses he has been memorizing all year long.) The main issue in this case comes not from the mere existence of the religious content, but my concern that the teacher had gone too far by directly contradicting me in something I taught him, and my surprise to discover that this particular church believes in YEC. Rest assured, LSB is loved and cared for at his school, is being taught his letters and shapes, and other than this incident we have been absolutely happy with the teacher and the school, and with the exposure he has gotten to Christianity.
Here’s some background for you: Little Skeptic Boy is five, has four wiggly teeth, and wants Hulk Smash Hands for Christmas. He loves science, as do I, so the other day we had a detailed discussion about the big bang. Next year he starts public school kindergarten, but for now he attends one of the highest-rated preschools in the area, that just happens to be at a Lutheran church in the bible belt. Then today we had this conversation:
Little Skeptic Boy: My teacher said it, but she’s wrong!!
Me: Said what, baby?
LSB: She said there was no big bang. She said that God created the universe. But she’s wrong and you’re right!
Me: Uhhhhh…
OK, now let’s not freak out here. Maybe his version of the conversation isn’t exactly what happened. After all he’s only five, and not a reliable witness. Maybe he shouted out that the big bang created the universe, and she replied along the lines of, “Well, the big bang didn’t create the universe, God did.”
Wait, is that any better?
So, it looks like I have three choices. I can take him out of the preschool, which would break his heart. I can do nothing, leave him in the preschool, and deprogram him later. Or I can have a talk with his teacher.
I don’t know, though. What might come out of my mouth?
- “How dare you lie to my child about the basic foundations of physics?”
- “So, are you guys young-earthers? ‘Cause that’s crazy!”
- “Feel free to teach my kid all about the bible, but don’t ever contradict me again.”
Now, if this were public school, I’d be absolutely up in arms. But, this is a private preschool that I chose, and if I’m not happy with it, we can leave. Or we can ignore this and go on. After all, he’s so young he probably won’t remember anything he learns there. Or…
Am I overreacting?
Laurie T.; December 19, 2008
· Filed under Christianity, Kids, Religion, School, Skeptical Kids, Son
Phil Plait Said,
December 19, 2008 @ 10:30 pm
That’s a tough one. I would call the teacher and ask what happened. If she did indeed invoke religion, I would find out what the school policy is on that. If there isn’t one, then maybe a polite request to keep personal beliefs out of the classroom (such as it is in preschool) would probably be appropriate, since not everyone has the same beliefs.
If there is a policy, and it states that religion is a no-no, then a calm discussion with the principal or whoever is in charge is then the thing to do.
I take this pretty seriously, because the casual inclusion of religious beliefs in situations like that are what lead to people believing things like “this is a Christian nation” without questioning it at all. And that’s not a good place for this country to be.
ticktock Said,
December 19, 2008 @ 10:33 pm
Yeah, my daughter goes to pre-k at the ymca, and she has been coming back with all kinds of information about baby Jesus.
I think you should ignore it. The offending remark is really tame considering that original creation is a core Christian belief that can’t really be proven wrong. After all, there is not much difference between a point of infinite density that suddenly explodes into a vast ever-expanding universe and a God who created the universe out of nothing. At least with YEC or christ’s miracles, you could point to evidence that contradicts the statements in the gospels or the deity myths that predate Jesus.
The important thing is that your son was able to decipher the truth despite the contradiction from his teacher.
Another thought is that the teacher may have been trying to protect the beliefs of the other classmates. Just as it wouldn’t be fair for a teacher to “out” Santa (which recently happened), it would also not be fair for a Lutheran teacher to allow a student to dismiss the core christian belief of an original creator and thus nullify a fundamental belief of other students.
I can’t believe I’m sticking up for religious education, but I’m trying to remember that this happened at a private christian school, and not at a public school.
Voltaire Said,
December 19, 2008 @ 11:48 pm
It sounds like you’re raising a good young skeptic, so I do not think that this will lead to any long-term issues. I had parents who raised me to love science and explore the world on my own, and the fact that my first grade teacher at my public elementary school taught us the story of Noah’s Ark as history didn’t have any detrimental effects on my development.
Noble Baker Said,
December 20, 2008 @ 8:25 am
I’m not a parent, but it seems to me that your LSB has got it pretty well covered. I would say ask him why he thinks mom is right and teacher is wrong. Make sure he understands the idea and that it’s not just argument from authority. If you teach him critical thinking (and it sounds like you have), he’ll do fine.
Tracy Said,
December 20, 2008 @ 9:48 am
I think kids who are being raised as skeptics should be ready to deal with other people who are not. To this end, our family talks a lot about why people believe what they believe. My kids came to the conclusion that it’s just easier for some people to believe that God created the Universe than to try to understand astrophysics. Maybe you could explain to your son that his teacher (and his school) has different beliefs than you do and that’s okay. Your beliefs are based on science and hers on religion.
Michelle Said,
December 20, 2008 @ 3:59 pm
It’s something I’m struggling with as I look for preschools for Peanut (she’s only 2 though). Most of the preschools, actually 95% are located in or adjacent to a church. I think that the way I would handle it would depend on whether the preschool was a Lutheran preschool or a secular private school that just happens to be renting a space from the church. If it’s a religious school, then I think you’re stuck with the whole “deprogram later” (or remove him from the school) option. I can tell you that I went to a Jewish school as a kid and my mom did a great job with the deprogramming. I got a great education and am still a skeptic. However, if it’s a private, secular school then I’d definitely talk to the teacher. If I didn’t get a satisfactory response, then I’d probably go to the principal and speak with other parents as well. Keep in mind that you’re paying for that education, they don’t want to lose your money…
Julie Said,
December 20, 2008 @ 5:14 pm
I’m not looking forward to stuff like this! It’s great that LSB is so on top of things at only five. Sounds like however you approach the school, you’re already doing a great job at home.
Helene Said,
December 20, 2008 @ 6:16 pm
My son’s best friend is a practicing Catholic so we’ve had this issue since kindergarten. I would suggest just reminding you son that scientists KNOW that the big bang created the universe and some people believe in God and believe that God made it happen. If it keeps coming up in school then you could address it.
My own son, in the course of 3 years, has gone from firmly believing in God and wishing I would to, to believing that God existed but didn’t actually create things (because of course the big bang did that), to being a complete atheist. All along we’ve just consistently told him what science tells us, what we believe, what others believe and asked him to choose the thing that makes the most sense to him. It’s worked so far. Good luck!
Aaron Helton Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 8:11 am
First, I guess I should say that my wife and I are raising our kids in the Catholic tradition (wife is, I’m not), and that my reason for doing so, skeptic though I am, is less for religious reasons than for establishment of tradition and sense of community. To that end, we will keep them in private schools (the oldest is in a Lutheran pre-k this year, but only because we got a late start with registration and the Catholic pre-k was full). I plan to deal with this by providing them with the tools to form their own skepticism and ask their own questions when the time comes. In the mean time, I see little harm in exposing them to this particular mythology.
Second, I was raised in an evangelical Christian household, and yet I turned away from it due to my own natural skepticism (and, ironically, my parents instilled in me some of that skepticism, though they frowned on it when it was directed at their beliefs). So I figure that, as long as you promote skepticism in the household and let your child come to his own conclusions when he has gathered evidence, the religious-based schooling he is receiving will not be harmful in the least. Besides, Lutheran and Catholic schools are among the best, academically, you can find, and they are the cheapest private schools (I have a healthy distrust of public schools).
Third, as long as your child is in a Lutheran or Catholic school, these kinds of incidents probably will continue to occur. As far as I know, the schools are wholly incorporated into the attached church for these institutions, and they make no separation between religious content in their education and other content. That said, I believe at least some Catholic schools do make some distinction and keep overtly religious content out of the classroom; the Catholic Church has acknowledged evolution, for instance, as a valid explanation, though maybe not as the origin of life. I’m not sure what the science curriculum looks like yet, but you can bet that if they teach creationism as fact, I will be looking for another school.
Finally, I guess I should reiterate (and echo other commenters’ sentiments): equip the child with the tools, and it doesn’t matter what he’s exposed to. He’ll do fine.
Laurie T. Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 8:12 am
Thanks so much for all your words of encouragement. I feel much better now!
I need to note that my explanation was unclear. The preschool IS a Lutheran preschool, and I knew that going in. In fact, the teacher is the minister’s wife. My daughter attended this same school three years ago, and I was comfortable with them both learning about the bible, the Christmas story, God and Jesus. This school will help me in my goal to expose them to all sorts of religions as they grow up, to help them understand the world more. However, I was floored by the direct contradiction of something I had told him. Plus, cosmology didn’t come up much when my daughter went there, so I was unprepared.
ticktock: Sounds like we are in similar boats! Thanks for your level-headed advice which considers the teacher’s perspective.
Michelle: I agree, most preschools are in churches, so it is very difficult to find one that isn’t. I chose the preschool we use after a long search, including calls and visits to lots of other preschools, and discussions with all the parents at playgroup about the preschools they used. In the end I chose this one because of all the glowing recommendations, the cleanliness of the facility, the small size of the classes, and the friendliness of the staff. The down side was that the kids would be taught to pray.
I think my approach will be to gently feel out LSB as to what exactly he has been told. Then I may or may not talk to the teacher, but I know that regardless, they’ll still keep preaching to him. In the mean time, we are going to go to the science museum this week, and we’ll go to the planetarium soon, and in a little while we are going to watch The Zula Patrol. I’ll make sure LSB and his sister keep it all straight.
What would you do? | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
[...] Laurie T. at Rational Moms has a problem: her son’s preschool teacher is injecting religion into her son’s day. Laurie obviously has a problem with this. However, it’s not a public school, so it’s not technically illegal. She’s unsure what to do, and is asking for ideas. [...]
Thomas Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 3:55 pm
I’m forced to wonder why a rationalist would choose to send their child to a church preschool in the first place but I’m not a parent so I’m sure that there are issues here that I am not prepared to address.
I’m going to assume that, because this is a religious institution, that whatever interpretation of the science/faith debate is most common in that religion is going to be what informs policy. As a Lutheran school, that will vary depending on the synod of which the school is a member. I would first have a discussion with the teacher and perhaps with the head administrator of the school to find out exactly what that policy is.
Even if the policy is to teach some sort or religious creation, unless it’s a systemic, day in day out, bit of instruction, I see no reason to take the child out of the school. This might be a great opportunity to introduce the boy to the fact that, as a skeptic, he is going to encounter religious people as he grows up and lives his life, people that will not share his world view but that, nonetheless, he must live among. These are people that, for practical reasons, he is going to have to tolerate and be tolerated by, however much he might want and try to change their worldview and however much they might do likewise.
Kathy A. Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 3:57 pm
My Mom ran into this kind of situation when I was a little skeptic a number of times, and her two-pronged approach worked well.
Prong number one was to reinforce with me that I should be thinking for myself and doing the whole “fact based agenda” thing. She taught me not to reject religion out of hand, but to ask myself whether that was a better explanation than any other.
Prong number two was to talk to the adults involved and find out what was really said. (Or at least their version). Let them know in a positive way that you’re trying to teach LSB to look at facts and question what he sees — find out now if that’s a problem for them. If it is, decide if the benefits of the school outweigh the costs. But at least you’ll know what the score is.
And, although the LSB is a bit young for this, it’s important for him to learn that people he respects may still say things that are wrong. Sometimes that’s the most valuable lesson we get from school.
Paul Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 4:14 pm
I think this needs to be made into a “learning opportunity” for your son. He’s going to have to learn sooner or later that adults, and especially adults in authority positions, say things that are anywhere from incorrect to “debatable”. When those situations happen, he’s also going to need to know how to handle himself.
As a parent, you need to ask yourself how much you want your child in the middle of such conflicts. Should he speak up for himself? Would you prefer he came home and tell you about it while keeping silent? Your answer to those questions should let you form some kind of idea about how you want your child to respond to the situation.
Sterling Camden Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 4:34 pm
(Showed the way here by the Bad Astronomer)
I think you can make this into a big win for your son. Presuming the direct contradiction is what it seems, you’ve been presented with an opportune demonstration that authority is not always right. That’s the big lesson here — and your son will have to ponder whether he believes your version, your teacher’s, neither, both (through some sort of interpretation), or undecided. This is critical thinking at its best!
dangerouspenguin Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
My mother was very religious and my father was very skeptical. I was forced into the religious tradition until I was deemed old enough to argue my way out of it. After my confirmation I sat my parents down, laid out the reasons for which I did not believe in God and was allowed to never go to church again if that’s what I wanted. I kept going because of the community there, and I still go on some of the big holidays because I find the music and the rituals comforting.
The moral of the story being that serious religious indoctrination cannot hold a good skeptic down, so I think your son is safe. His perspective will be challenged by religious perspectives all of his life so he might as well start thinking his way through them now.
Ed C Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
I more or less agree with Dr. Phil Plait. I would talk to the teacher to
get the “straight dope”. (If that is possible). I would rather have a face to face talk.
Tom Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 5:02 pm
I think you can keep him in school. There will always be some difficulty, regardless of what school you place him in; that is, someone, somewhere, will teach him differently than you do. It’s something you will have to deal with, and something many parents lack with their relationships with their children.
Also, keep this in mind – your son is five. He is not really ready to accept the role of “critical thinker”. Teaching him yourself is fine, but remember, he is learning what YOU are teaching him, with little regard for the facts or details. He trusts you, and you are his mother! What you tell him, he believes (rightly, I hope!) to be true. It’s going to be natural for him to continue to question others’ beliefs and statements, not just in the religion aspect, but in everything life has to offer. It’s a start, and the questions are good. If you deny the teachers’ aspect of this you might also be denying him an opportunity to learn the “whys” of the truth.
It’s your job to help him learn, but the learning will ultimately be his responsibility.
Jodi Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
This is one of my biggest fears, as I’m currently searching for a pre-school for my two-year old. Glad to read some of the opinions and advice here.
Sometimes, as non-religious atheist types, we are too forgiving of the insertion of religion where inappropriate. We just roll our eyes and say, “Oh, those crazy xtians.” So my first instinct is to try and fight the power. However, knowing it was religious-ish atmosphere going in, I think you have to deprogram this one at home. I am trying to find a secular pre-school for my daughter, but I know they are hard to come by in a lot of areas.
Justin Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 6:07 pm
Me= parent and certified teacher, btw.
It’s unfortunate that in so many places the best schools are run by churches. Still, this won’t change in time for your son’s first grade year, so…
I suggest going to the school and asking the teacher what their curriculum teaches exactly. You could make clear your position, that the Big Bang happened, etc., and that you’d appreciate it if real science only was taught to your child.
You might say. “Let me get this straight. You’re telling the kids the big bang didn’t happen? This puts me in a difficult position. I want my kid to get a quality education, which in other respects he gets here at your school. On the other hand, you either do not know your science well enough to be teaching it or you are deliberately lying to my child in order to advance your religious ideas. This troubles me.”
That might take it too far.
Or it might not if said politely.
If they cannot or won’t relent, then you have a couple of choices. Pull your kid out is one. The other, harder choice, might be more constructive in the long run. Lil Skeptic Boy will be neighbors with people who believe all kinds of silly ideas throughout his life. Learning how to deal with this right now could really help him as time goes by.
At his age, you can teach him a simple “how to” of dealing with superstitious people. Keep it at his level. Review it regularly. He’ll turn out remarkably skilled at expressing his own viewpoints diplomatically, which is unfortunately a skill the skeptical world lacks, I think.
Good luck!
The Barber of Civility Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 7:23 pm
Dr. Plait brought me to you, also. I have read all the comments, and I think you’ve gotten some very solid ideas here.
I’d like to add a suggestion. As best as you can, teach your son about what the word “theory” means to scientists, as well as the other definition. I know that’s a tough concept for a five-year-old, but he WILL come up against someone (the teacher, another kid whose parents taught him the other definition and applied it to scientific theories, or someone else he is talking to) who will throw that at him.
I suspect what you will find is that your son was sharing what he learned with another kid or the class, and the teacher felt compelled to respond. If so, that doesn’t make the teacher right for contradicting either you or your son, she should have been more sensitive to the situation. A discussion with her may get her on a more agreeable track.
It’s worth a try in order to keep him there!
Good luck and let us know what comes of all this!
Dak Irw Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
Hmmm… This is a tough one. On one hand, you don’t want your son to be taught this stuff, but it’s also true that you’re sending him to a Lutheran preschool.
Given the religious environment that the preschool is in, I think it’s pretty safe to say that anything being taught will be filtered by the religious background of the teacher and school.
Have you considered finding a non-religious preschool, such as a Montessori school, or something similar? You might be happier with the curriculum in that environnment.
Dan Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 8:53 pm
Laurie;
Let me preface this by saying I’m not a lawyer, I’m a 2nd year law student, so this isn’t legal advice. But I figured I’d toss my 2 cents in.
I’m assuming this isn’t a parochial school. But the first step is definitely to talk to the administration. Unless this IS a parochial school, they almost certainly have some sort of policy against this kind of stuff.
Unfortunately, if the school doesn’t have a problem you are kind of out of luck in terms of the legality. The Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses don’t apply to non-public schools. You might be able to get somewhere if the school receives state funding for things like tests, books, etc. But generally, private schools aren’t under the umbrella.
Kash Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
Hey Laurie, Just stopping by after reading about you in Bad Astronomy. Firstly, although you probably have, but just for the sake of argument, I’d check out just what Lutheran you’re dealing with. Some of the churches, such as WELS or Missouri Synod are positively medieval when it come to their beliefs. So, just for the sake of argument, the more you know about their beliefs, will help you in making your decision.
Secondly, although the lil’ skeptic is just a tot, I’d suggest getting his input as to the course of action. Can he justify allowing his “teacher” to be wrong about such a basic concept? Will his understanding that his teacher isn’t infallible disrupt his ability to learn from her other less controversial subjects?
Lastly, just what is it that makes it a “highest rated” preschool? Is it that other xian’s determined it’s rating based on dogma rather than tangibles?
My personal opinion is to keep creationism out of the classroom and our children. Enroll your lil’ skeptic in a lesser rated preschool that places less emphasis on their rating and more on their content.
Respectifully,
Kash
Daniel Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 9:34 pm
I can’t understand why you would send your child to a religious school? You are basically telling the child the teacher is lying, so how is his little mind going to decide if everything else she is teaching him is a lie or not. If he was older it would be easier to explain, but a such a young age i think i’d switch schools.
My sisters kids attend a catholic a school and i cant for the life of me figure out why they let their children be exposed to such nonsense. I tell my nephew plain and simple there is no such think as god, and explain why, but at the same time he is forced to believe in santa too. I dont know why so many parents lie to the kids about that one?
I wish you all the best, at the very least i suggest you investigate the matter further.
Nathan Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 9:40 pm
This pre-school may be top-rated but if such a fundamental issue as creationism is being taught to young children I think your best bet is to find an alternative pre-school.
I don’t imagine this is easy for you, but I do hope you make it through this.
Sweetie Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 10:29 pm
I’m sure the mom knew there would be religious teachings (she even says so in her follow-up comment), but it sounds like the teacher (at least by the son’s recollection) might have been talking full-on special creationism (young-earth, etc.). I think that’s part of the issue, here. A little research about Lutheran doctrines proves that out, at least for one major Synod…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church_-_Missouri_Synod#Creation
>>The LCMS is officially creationist. According to the recent
>>2004 LCMS synodical resolution 2-08A “To Commend
>>Preaching and Teaching Creation,” all LCMS churches and
>>educational institutions—including preschool through 12th
>>grade, universities, and seminaries—are “to teach creation
>>from the Biblical perspective.”
Where I live, the ONLY (yes ONLY) decent preschools are theistic — the secular ones are crap. I’d have done the same thing she did.
I think the best option here is to just gut it out for the rest of the school year, and within a year of starting public school in the fall, with proper guidance from the parents, it will all be forgotten. Having a conversation with the teacher (even if it weren’t any of the humorous examples presented by the author) probably won’t get anywhere except “outing” the kid as a child of an atheist… and perhaps subjecting him to EXTRA proselytizing from the minister’s wife.
Phil Plait Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 10:37 pm
Somehow, when I read this post, I missed that the preschool was at a Lutheran church. Because of that, I withdraw my earlier comment. You have to expect religion as part of the day when you place your child in a religious preschool unless otherwise noted by the preschool itself. The decision is then whether you want to keep the child in that environment or not, which is a decision the parent makes. My earlier comment relegated the problem to the preschool, but that’s not the case here.
chanson Said,
December 21, 2008 @ 11:05 pm
Wow!!!
I think this is a big part of the problem. When the public insitiutions are broken — and nobody believes in fixing them — that’s when the churches come in and pick up the slack, expanding their influence in the process.
This situation is perhaps not too big a problem for LSG and LSB (whose parents know a lot about science ). But I’ll bet there are plenty of other parents who would prefer not to have religious education packaged with the regular education, and perhaps don’t have the same skills to deal with the problem like Laurie T…
Thomas (Doubting) Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 1:06 am
I think both the Wisconsin and Missouri Synods of the Lutheran Church are “young earthers” in addition to being against women being priests. I was brought up in what is now called the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) and which recognizes the facts regarding evolution and a multi-billion year old universe.
So depending on which it is, you might want to reconsider placement in this particular school or just have some talks about what the facts are. If you keep your child in the school, I’d suggest encouraging your child not to disagree with the teacher, no matter how wrong she is. People don’t like being told they’re wrong by children and can make things tough for them.
Good luck.
Tony Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 1:19 am
Mrs. Laurie,
I found this page from Bad Astronomy, and I’m impressed by the level of even-minded and rational responses your thoughts and situation garnered. I am an officer in the US Navy, and I have two nieces that I dote on, especially at Christmas time. Both girls (5 and 2) are slated to attend a Baptist pre-K program, as the only pre-K programs in my brother and sister-in-law’s area are the religious-funded and controlled. Our school system stopped hosting them a few years ago after some councilman decided that it would be cheaper to just toss it to the churches and save the school’s budget.
With that, my mother and father take great care to expose the two girls to a plethora of ideas and experiences. My father bought a beautiful 10″ Meade telescope and takes them out every few nights a week to show them the night sky in Georgia (Last night, we showed them Orion and Sirius!) My mother shows them art and reading from all over – Asia, South America, Europe. As I travel with the Navy, I send home pictures and gifts from all over the world. My brother and sister-in-law have been enrolling them in all sorts of other extra-curricular activities. The over-arching goal is to inspire with our two little girls the desire to learn and explore the world, to ask questions and find out those answers.
From what I have read of the above responses and of your situation, you have raised a wonderful and intelligent young man, who questions and seeks out new things. I would not be afraid of what he might learn in those classrooms. Your gift of inspiration and open discussion will guide him to make the right decisions and develop his own method for working with others that differ in viewpoint. I hope you have a wonderful holiday season and that you and your family celebrate a happy New Year.
RationalZen Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 5:16 am
This is not a tough call at all.
You chose this preschool that you knew was in a Lutheran church in the bible belt based on it’s merits as a school.
Once you make your choice for the good, you have to accept the bad that comes along with it. If you are so devoted to the cause against your child’s exposure to religion you should withdraw them, it’s only preschool afterall. Counting, letter recognition, sorting and colors can all be taught at home with ease even if the parent is only half dedicated. The concern for your child is evident, so you’d have even more success.
Your son contradicted the teacher, so why are you worried in the first place?
Pete Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 10:46 am
Another visitor from Phil’s blog, I’m afraid.
Our two children, now 6 and 7 years old, both attended a Presbyterian Preschool. We were in the same boat, with the highest rated preschool in the county just up the street and still, it’s at a church. In our minds, there was a lot worse one could suffer.
We fell back to our reasons for wanting preschool in the first place: we wanted our kids to get a head start on the important stuff during the day, just like we do at night. In all, they get 90% of their time dedicated to reading, writing and the like (along with playing well with others, learning to sit in a classroom, etc.). We figured the 10% woo was manageable, especially since it comes with a mix of the same traditions we were raised on and at the age of 4-5 who really understands the material anyway? Does a 5 year old even understand what the “big bang” really means, either? Probably not; at least not at a level useful enough to compare/contrast with the woo cosmology myths.
We have not had a problem in that department and we are happy we did it.
JPS Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 11:10 am
You need to take that child out of that preschool immediately. When I was five years old I attended a religious preschool. Not only are religious preschools apt to impose lies and myths as facts on children, they are also much more liable to treat children very poorly. The major world’s religions objectify children to the point of abuse and encourage hierarchical power structures that cause children much trauma and grief. Your child’s provider is also far more likely to use corporal punishment and psychological mind-games to control the children. This is a documented social fact.
If you are a progressive, rational, and healthy supporter of children’s rights, it is important to find a preschool that is also a progressive, rational, and healthy supporter of children’s rights.
Brango Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 12:02 pm
Of course the ideal situation is for every parent to apply their own filter to their childs education, but that would surely fuel a more divisive society in the long run. Each and every child is capable of discerning and reasoning. It is up to us to present our arguments in a way that does not pollute that reasoning by personifying or demonizing, or creating sides that can be either attacked or adopted. I would certainly allow religious views to be expressed in their presence, but I would discourage the attachment of right or wrong to it by either you or the school.
From my own personal experience, I was brought up neutral to religion. My parents wanted me to make my own choices and did not interfere with the religious education I received – although I did get asked to leave Sunday school for making the teacher cry because I sent her into a circular reasoning argument that was very “disruptive” to the rest of the class. I was always encouraged to simply “think logically” by my parents, and despite the many establishment attempts to empty my mind of knowledge, I enjoyed having the ability to question with my own mind too much.
My father was just as curious about the universe as me, and the very fact that I could tell him the answer sometimes was enough to drive my inquisitive nature forward. Accepting Jesus as my lord and master was all very well, but it just couldn’t compete with being able to proudly say “No Dad, you are ‘always’ in between the sun and the center of a rainbow circle.”
Little did I know that by feigning ignorance, I was being coaxed by my father to tell him things he already knew. It made no difference, because he was witnessing me discover these things myself, with my own curiosity. He was learning them all over again, through me.
So, i guess my advice would be not to discourage a religious influence. Encourage its critical examination and give your child the opportunity to teach you about it. You may have the answers already, but your child may have better ones and will delight in imparting knowledge to you. They will not only know that something is right or wrong, but will have reasoned that conclusion for themselves. A true skeptic.
Maybe then the experiences they are having now will become the founding of a great teacher.
Karl Withakay Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
If you are going to send your child to a preschool run by a religious organization, you need to find out up front what type of dogma you can expect to be presented to your child. The preschool isn’t at fault here unless they are violating an explicit policy against religious indoctrination. They have a right to run their preschool how they want to unless they receive public funds to support their preschool activities.
I wouldn’t worry about pulling you son out of the school, though. That’s an age where many children still believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny, and most of us manage to put that indoctrination behind us. Besides, his reaction shows you got him off on a good foot anyway. (I suppose it would be too much to ask for a preschooler to grill the teacher on what kind of scientific support she has for her position, but wouldn’t it be funny if he had?)
I went to a Christian run preschool, and attended Lutheran schools from Kindergarten trough my senior year of high school, and I still managed to end up an atheist, so there’s always hope.
SteveG Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 12:16 pm
I picked this up from Phil Plait’s Bad Astronomy. I realize the thread is old but since I have had similar experiences (years ago) I thought I’d add a note.
I’m a skeptic from a long time ago and I’ve raised my two children to be skeptical and pretty much agnostic when it comes to religion.
However both of my children, (my son is now 18, my daughter is 16) went to a Catholic pre-school I chose the probbaly for the same reasons you chose yours. From a religious point of view, I knew what I was getting into and I didn’t fight it. My kids participated in Christmas pageants and Easter celebrations and so on.
The truth is, I learned a lot through my kids’ daycare experience.
The first lesson wasn’t religious at all. It came one day – not his first day – when I dropped of f my son and with a terrified look on his face he screamed “Daddy please don’t leave me!!” The nuns reassured me and I could watch through a window as he calmed down and began to play with the other children. Still my heart was crushed. The next day was the same thing. It lasted a week or so. What a way to start my day.
But this came and went. The next stage was when he cried when I came to pick him. And I watched him cling to one of the young nuns he had come to bond with. Daycare was killing me.
But over time I realized I’m the Dad. I mean, hey, I’m the Dad! Nobody can compete with me. Adopted kids will travel around the globe looking for their birth parents. As parents, the things we do and say have immeasurable influence on our children. If we said the moon is made of Styrofoam our kids would grow up believing that. We’ve all met the people who have grown up in households with unusual beliefs and customs. Some they can’t shake even though they know better as adults. Some even pass them along to their own kids knowing they’re wrong!
As teenagers my kids are die-hard skeptics. Their Catholic pre-school, complete with pageants and plays, did not indoctrinate them with religious beliefs. Only I could do that.
So I would tell you, only you can do that. And your son did hold his point of view and came and talked to you. What a great opportunity to teach tolerance. And our children will meet many people with many beliefs and they may even investigate some to see if any meet their unique needs. But I will tell you they will always measure them against what you teach them.
So relax, ‘cause we’re the Moms and Dads and nobody can compete with us.
Dave B Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
I grew up in a country that has an established religion, where religious education was mandatory in public schools and where hymns and prayers are a routine part of the schools morning assemblies.. England.
For my own part, I ended up finding my own spiritual path, liberally dosed with skepticism, and before I transitioned over to IT in a radical career change spent several years doing molecular bio research. My brother who came up through the same system has a PhD in physics and plays with supercomputers for a living.
Its all about the attitude. I’m no Christian, but I’m comfortable in churches – I can respect their beliefs/superstitions without taking them upon myself or needing to impose my worldview on them. Heck, I was no Christian all the time the local vicar wanted me in the church choir because he needed a boy treble soloist. He knew it and didnt care.
When I still had a scientific career, many of my colleagues were religious, and saw the scientific truths that they were observing as religiously inspiring, illuminating the deeper levels of their religion rather than contradicting it. There is a level of fanaticism and literalism over here that just doesnt exist in any part of the English mainstream.
Kids are quite mentally adaptable – the exposure to a religious context and worldview at school coupled with the practical and skeptical at home will teach them more than either parent or teacher could alone – A mind that can context-switch and respond appropriately to the situation that they are in – neither being antireligion in somebody elses place of worship nor a scriptural literalist in a facts and observation based scientific context – is better suited to todays world than anyone who cannot do this.
Robert Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 3:42 pm
I’d tell the Little Skeptic that some people don’t understand science, or don’t believe in it, but that they’re wrong. To be fair, I’d also let the preschool staff know what I’ve told the Skeptic.
I was once a Little Skeptic myself, and at age 6 I vigorously debated evolution vs. creationism with my best friend’s Southern Baptist mom. It drove her nuts, and it still gives me satisfaction thinking about it more than 40 years later.
Kenage Said,
December 22, 2008 @ 4:50 pm
Hi there.
It looks to me that you son is doing pretty well, why are you so concerned about this?
Said that… something doesn’t seem too well to me, why right and wrong?, I should say I’m no parent yet though, won’t it be better for your son if you use this experience to let him know that people out there will believe different things than him, and he will need to deal with that, judge, and accept or reject them as he see fit.
I know you hope him to be skeptic at heart and see to the world with the eyes of since, but if you close his eyes(of apart his sight form this for that matter) won’t you be doing exactly the same thing that you dislike from religious believers?
I hope your problem get solve in the best way.
Ken.
firstofall556 Said,
December 23, 2008 @ 10:23 am
A lot good ideas.
first I understand why you have chosen that Pre-school. Unfortunately most of the Pre-Schools are affiliated with churches I see this seems to be true around the country. That is a whole sepperate issue.
I do disagree with the idea of letting your son know that anyone who isn’t a skeptic is wrong. The fact of the matter is your neighbors and even your own families can and will have different beliefs than yours. I feel it’s more important to teach tolerance of others. This will not only help him get along with others, but it can help the world.
However it is important to give him the tools to make decisions for himself. And it seems you are committed to doing so.
Let’s not raise our children believing it’s “You” VS. Us
Mamalicious Said,
December 23, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
Hi there, great blog. I would simply say that your teacher believes that God created the universe, but science has taught you that the universe was created with a big bang. At this point, discussing the difference between science and facts and religious belief may be a bit too nuanced, but give it a go. You have plenty of time to fill in the details on this later.
As to his teacher, you may want to ask that she respect your desire to teach your child science along with the exposure to religious tradition. Or let it slide. It’s true that in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that big of a deal.
Rational Moms » Blog Archive » Charlies Playhouse: Blog, Toy Store, Resource Said,
January 5, 2009 @ 4:32 pm
[...] to borrow it to use in her class. (I won’t bother offering it to Little Skeptic Boy’s preschool teacher, though.) I also will use the book list to help me find some evolution-themed books for my kids, [...]