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17 Comments »

1. You Don’t See Dead People. And Neither Do Your Kids. « Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptic blogs of the day Said,

   October 6, 2008 @ 3:24 pm

   [...] READ THE REST OF THIS ENTRY AT “RATIONAL MOMS” [...]

2. Cobwebs Said,

   October 6, 2008 @ 3:44 pm

   I can unfortunately relate to this. My dad was (and is) convinced that he was Sensitive, and interpreted any coincidental “premonitions” or “sightings” that my sister and I had as the real deal. I remember spending many nights as a child, terrified that I might see ghosts in my room.

   I eventually wised up, but my dad (and my sister, who is now Wiccan) tend to view my assertions that there’s no such thing as ghosts with a sort of exasperated tolerance; clearly my mind just isn’t open to the Truth.

   I think I’m much happier with my version of reality, thanks.

3. Dawn Said,

   October 7, 2008 @ 2:26 pm

   “To my daughter, as well as rational people everywhere, ghosts are fictional, frivolous things.”

   I have a bone to pick. Rational people everywhere may well agree that ghosts are fictional but I’d argue they aren’t frivolous at all. Look at the power they have for your daughter even, or perhaps especially, because they are fictional.

   There’s nothing about being rational that demands we be dismissive of myth and fiction.

   Otherwise, I’m loving the blog!

4. INTJ Mom Said,

   October 7, 2008 @ 5:36 pm

   My 2 yr old daughter is into ghosts also. I remember back when I was religious and believed in angels and Satan and his demons, I could get spooked so easily. I was afraid of the dark until I was in high school and had to sleep with the bathroom light on (there was a bathroom connected to my bedroom). I finally decided it was pathetic for a teenager to be so afraid of the dark so I made myself sit all night in the dark one night, and it was the scariest night of my life. After that I could sleep without the light but if I saw a show or read a book that dealt with paranormal evil, I’d be freaked out again – even as a young adult. Sometimes I’d swear that I could feel Satan around me, trying to get me. I was pretty brainwashed in some ways.

   After I gave up religion and then eventually all things paranormal I stopped getting spooked period – well except for Sarah Palin, she scares me. There was a time when I would’ve watched a movie like “The Ring” and not been able to sleep for days. Nowadays things like that just amuse me. I’m really glad my kids haven’t had to experience that paralyzing fear of supernatural evil that I felt as a child and young adult.

5. Jodi Said,

   October 7, 2008 @ 6:33 pm

   Thanks for all the great comments on my post, and we all appreciate your support for our new site!

   I did want to address Dawn’s comment regarding the use of the word “frivolous.” I had hoped that the context made it clear that I don’t dismiss fiction, but I may have failed. While it’s true that frivolous can mean “of little or no weight, worth, or importance,” it can also mean “characterized by lack of seriousness, carefree” which is the sense in which I intended it.

   The power of story telling is wonderful and the import, to me, is that
   parents distinguish for their children what is real and what is fiction.
   Traveling down the road of Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the like, is a decision left to each parent.

6. Dawn Said,

   October 8, 2008 @ 3:51 am

   D’oh! Thanks for clarifying that Jodi and my apologies for misinterpretting that!

7. Tommy Said,

   October 21, 2008 @ 12:47 pm

   This is the best thing I’ve read so far this week. I find these shows degrading, and even demoralizing, and it stuns me how many morons watch this stuff. But, man, does it draw the line when it comes to brainwashing kids into believing this crap.

   I always feel sad when I see very young children being raised into ANY kind of religion (or even atheism, for that matter) because it means the child wasn’t able to make a choice. There only option is to unlearn what they’ve been taught should they ever decide to switch religions or pursue skepticism.

   But teaching children that ghosts are real is beyond the pale. I don’t agree with religion, and I CERTAINLY don’t agree that you need religion to have moral values. But I can kind of see the argument that a parent feels that it’s his/her responsibility to teach a child what they believe to be wrong/right.

   But what is the justification for teaching children about the paranormal? That is just beyond sad.

   This post was very well written and probably the best thought out post to date for this blog. I was very impressed.

   P.S. Am I the only guy to comment on this blog?

8. alexandra dence Said,

   October 31, 2008 @ 3:54 pm

   Jodi assumes that kids see nothing and that they tell their parents “stories” in order to “be special” and win their parents approval. That’s the only rationalisation she offers as to why a child would repeatedly tell her parent that she sees dead people. There is simply no other explanantion she even considers. They couldn’t possibly be telling the truth!!

   And that’s the only scenario she envisions. If it hasn’t been scientifically proven in a scientifially reputable way, it simply doesn’t exist. I’ve never seen the A&E show, but my daughter has, and she deplores the sensationalising and gimmicky nature of how it treats its subject — and Coffee maybe ‘legitimate’ or not, I don’t know. But I do know my daughter has been seeing ‘dead people’ and predicting the future for 15 years now (she’s 17) and has suffered more from people who assume she simply can’t be seeing what she sees than from so-called manipulative parents who want their child to be “special’. This is such an insulting, narrow and simplistic understanding of this issue. For the record we didn’t believe her for a number of years. Thought it was ‘imagination’ or a desire for ‘attention’ or all the other acceptable rationalisations that people unthinkingly simply assume. We’ve decided to believe her. She’s isolated enough with this ‘thing’ she hates and wishes would go away. So now we’re isolated too simply becuase it is an unacceptable secret in the ‘educated’ circles (I have a PhD, my husband an MA) move in. But hey, according to Jodi, we orchestrated the whole thing! We wanted her to see dead people!! Nothing could be further from the truth. The whole thing has caused us such grief through the years, there’s no way of explaining to someone so utterly unaware of this issues except from what she sees on T.V.

   There’s a whole lot more to this than Jodi realises or the t.v. networks who treat it as entertainment. I wish we could really talk about it, but clearly we can’t.

9. Donna Said,

   October 31, 2008 @ 6:49 pm

   @alexandraDence, you have one valid point if, in your case, you didn’t encourage your daughter. If, that is, Jodi’s article suggests that all parents encourage the children that claim to see dead people. I don’t get that vibe but, in re-reading the post, I guess you could make the argument that Jodi didn’t qualify the statement carefully enough by saying “many” parents encourage the children. (That seems like nitpicking to me but, as I said, I didn’t read it the way you did so I want split hairs.)

   However, you’re denying the larger point. YOUR DAUGHTER CANNOT SEE DEAD PEOPLE OR PREDICT THE FUTURE.

   It’s unfair to say that Jodi said the children couldn’t possibly be telling the truth. I didn’t read anywhere in Jodi’s post that she said the children were lying. These children may very well believe they see dead people. But any empirical or reasoned test will show that they do not.

   It makes me really sad to read a tale of two educated people, that began in rationality, but that, after years of consideration, ended in an irrational reversal brought about to support a loved one. You say you didn’t believe her for years, cite a number of reasons, and then say you’ve decided to believe her. Good for you! But she still doesn’t see dead people, and she can’t predict the future.

   Predicting the future is among the easiest paranormal claims to test, and there are many rewards for this skill–including the $1 million dollar JREF award–If you sincerely believe that your daughter can predict the future, she can do a lot of good for a lot of people. Please ask her to prove her abilities and help others, or her family, or herself.

   It’s at once humorous and depressing that you snipe educated circles and scientific evaluations. The reason your belief is an unacceptable secret in educated circles is because rational educated people know not to take claims on face value without empirical testing. They know through MANY, MANY DECADES of study and evaluation that you can’t see dead people or predict the future. Of course, your daughter may be the first with this ability. Good for her! All she needs to do is prove it, and your little secret won’t be so foolish after all, and you can make all those stuffed shirts eat their proverbial hats.

   I realize that you can get a PhD or MA in anything, and you can even get both through the mail for a couple of grand without ever attending any classes. I do not imply that is the case with you. I am merely making the point that I know nothing about your education, but I would prefer to believe that a couple with that much education between them would understand scientific method.

   You say “If it hasn’t been scientifically proven in a scientifically reputable way, it simply doesn’t exist.” That’s an infantile generalization because new scientific discoveries are being made all the time. What Jodi’s post discussed is that known claims, such as being able to predict the future, cannot merely be believed. (That is ludicrous on the face of it. Think about that for a minute. What if I told you I could cure all known diseases with a gesture of my hand? Would you believe me?) Instead, these claims should be proven using reputable, reproducible scientific methods.

   I say this next point cautiously, without any condesension or projection of any kind, and without any discouragement intended, you may want to seek out the unbiased opinion of a third-party professional. If your daughter maintains that she sees dead people, doesn’t like it, and wishes it would go away, there is a possibility that your daughter may have a legitimate illness that brings about minor delusions. (A craft my phrasing this way because she sounds, by omission of any other detail, to be healthy in other respects.)

   I promise you that I’m not taking cheap shots at you or your family. There are countless idiots out there that read tea leaves and gaze into crystal balls that I wouldn’t even bother suggesting this to. I’m simply suggesting that there may be a neurological reason that she is simultaneously so steadfast and unhappy. You can pursue this consultation without any fear, and without your daughter being aware of any doubt on your part. Just be sure to consult a credible member of the scientific community, and not one that has a predilection toward spiritual mediums. That is, you can find an expert to tell you anything. If you’re truly interested in a third-party opinion, don’t go looking for an expert that will reassure you.

   Finally, you say you “wish we could really talk about it, but clearly we can’t.” While that may sound defeatist to some, I fear I agree. I’ve found that, when someone believes in the paranormal but not scientific method, there’s really no talking. Ideally, you will seek out an unbiased professional and, perhaps, be willing to talk about this with that person. But this public forum, arguing from the pro and con camp, will probably not do you much good.

10. alexandra dence Said,

    November 1, 2008 @ 9:43 am

    Thank you for the lengthy response. A couple of things I could reply to, but again, you are speaking as someone who is really not familiar with this phenomenon on a personal basis.

    My daughter does not have ‘minor delusions’. I realise you meant that comment kindly. She has been assessed psychologically and is healthy. The reason we decided to believe her is not worth going into simply because I really doubt it would be believed and also it was the result of daily occurances that happened over about 9 years. But no, no one in our circle of friends will see her claims as other than “minor delusions” or lying or something else. That has caused her so much pain over the years that we don’t talk about it anymore. And she has no desire, none, to predict the future for $. Whenever it has happened, it was completely unchosen. She doesn’t feel like she has any control over it.

    But why I think she may be telling the truth? Well my sister also can see ‘dead people’ and frequently also has had experiences that are not ‘rational’. I did also as a child, although I was always careful not to tell anyone. I’m sorry if I sounded angry – I apologise. But part of that anger comes from decades of these things being disbelieved or “explained away” by several scientists we know. And what they’ve said, simply isn’t true, however rational it sounds. In university circles, these experiences are simply discredited out of hand. I don’t know whether what my daughter sees could be proven by a test, scientifc or otherwise. I’m not sure what such a test would look like. If there was such a test and it did proove something, likely it would only proove that she does in fact see something, not what. That would do her any good becuase she has never doubted, herself, what she sees. It is only the well meaning adults around her that have. You say she may not be lying but also say that what she claims to see simply can’t be true. Thus she’s delusional or there’s something physically wrong with her eyesight or something. Definately to you she must be as, you put in capitals, NO ONE SEES DEAD PEOPLE and NO ONE CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE. You would say that my daughter is the only one, if she does. Not true.

    I realise what you write makes sense to you and to many who have never had these experiences. They are very common in our family, although never talked about. For sure, there are people who make false claims. Lots of disproven occurences and charlatans out there trying to make money. I won’t argue that because it is fact. But I know my daugher is neither delusional, nor has a neurological problem not has a physical reason for what she sees.

    I hear you trying to sound very kind and yet implying a lot of very disparging things. I’m sorry I provoked that with my anger. I should never have joined this blog as I should have realised that no one here would consider the possibility that she is simply seeing what she is seeing. And to be honest, while it is uncommon, it may not be as uncommon as you think, simply because people learn to be quiet about these experiences for fear of being disbelieved or dismissed. That has been our common experience.

    And no, we didn’t buy our degrees. Thank you for replying to this comment at such length. I’m sorry if I sounded angry — I realise that is not something that most people here would understand because everyone here is in pretty much complete agreement on whether such experiences actually occur. I apologise for wasting your time.

11. BKOsOsuper Said,

    December 6, 2008 @ 5:08 am

    Whether to find a theme which was not discussed on one on this a blog?And that we communicate only on blog themes, and other themes are not present.
    Сериал Розвелл

12. Dennis O'Connor Said,

    October 3, 2009 @ 12:52 pm

    I was pointed to this blog by someone who wants this to be the truth. You can use all the capitals you want…that doesn’t make it true.
    My wife sees dead people. She is a world renowned medium. That is to say people contact her from all over the world and she sees and speaks to their dead relatives and friends.She has had this ability since she was young. Alexandra your daughter is a medium. Be proud of her. She must learn to filter it for her peace of mind. Her guides will help her. She knows what I am talking about.
    They are not burning them as often as they used to. They are crucifying them on the web….like this.
    It’s OK. You and your family know the truth.

13. Jodi Said,

    October 3, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

    Dennis,

    If your wife is as legit as you say she is, please encourage her to contact JREF and take the $1 million challenge.

    http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

    The skeptics, the science community, and the world are all anxious and eager for someone, anyone, to win this challenge. Randi’s been doing it for many years and no one has proved their abilities thus far. But, perhaps your wife is the one to do it.

14. Dennis O'Connor Said,

    October 3, 2009 @ 8:07 pm

    It’s a fraud…a well known fraud.
    People like my wife “prove” their abilities every day all over ther world.
    One must first open ones eyes to see and ones ears to hear. No amount of forcing will do.
    Wage Peace
    den

15. Julie Said,

    October 20, 2009 @ 11:18 am

    I stumbled onto this page by accident – it really really upsets me how close-minded some people are and judgemental!!! My daughter is the MOST normal child in the world – she dances, is popular and has many friends, makes all A’s, is very involved in saving our earth….very Green…takes time to raise money for animals without homes, helps her mother greatly – is a very good girl that I am very proud of…her teachers have always said they wish their children could be half as much like my daughter…well guess what she sees Ghosts, she talks to ghosts, talks to angels…..witnesses crimes in her head she can replay to the very exact detail…..I too have two degrees in Psychology…..but I’m not pretending to be God here…………….oh and my daughter can hold an object and give details where its been in the past, and where it will be in the future…..whoever wrote this column….do you have a metaphysics degree? How do you know everything? Congratulations to Den, above, for the love and support of his wife……………..open your eyes to your own daughter……..I can always say that I was there and supported her from the beginning, when she needed me the most, as I will be in the future for whatever my daughters may need me for…..

16. alexandra dence Said,

    February 4, 2010 @ 9:49 am

    Just a thank you to Dennis and Julie for being brave enough to reply on this blog. I think it was my fault for responding to Jodi in the first place. I really should have known better. And I think I know how hard it must be to believe there could be any validity in such claims if one has never had these experiences nor known anyone s/he can trust who has. I doubt I would believe others were I not myself either someone who has had the experiences or related to someone who did. So I’m sure it looks from the outside like a huge load of hooey. But we have a long history of having these experiences dismissed and ridiculed in our family, so I felt I needed to speak up. I appreciate the courage of others to do the same in very hostile territory. So thank you. And Dennis my daughter is finally taking her ability seriously and, for the record, is committed to never taking any money for it as she knows that will make her the object of fury and contempt from the ‘rational’ community. Since we have several scientists in the family, we know how painful that contempt can feel if one has these experiences.

    so thank you for being willing to speak up. It means a lot!

    Sincerely,

    A. Dence

17. Aldyth Said,

    March 1, 2010 @ 6:14 am

    For those who want absolute scientific proof, there will never be enough evidence to convince them. For those who have lived through this and dealt with it, we know what we experienced.

    You haven’t got a clue.

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